096. Vivian Carrasco: Mindset, transformation, and practice (transcript)

Highlight [0:00]

Chapter’s show notes…

Vivian (00:00:04):
(highlight) Podcasting for me, initially, was a way that I unfolded my message, my platform for the world. But now, it’s different because I do have a community. It’s an invisible conversation. Like right now, I can physically see you but when I’m host on mic, I am having a conversation, hopefully with the listener. (/highlight)


Introduction [0:28]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:00:30):
(chapter) Hello, I’m Craig Constantine. Welcome to the Movers Mindset podcast where I talk with movement enthusiasts to learn who they are, what they do, and why they do it. This is episode number 96, Mindset, transformation and practice.

Craig (00:00:49):
Transformation is often thought of as a particular turning point, but Vivian Carrasco views it as a daily practice. She discusses stillness, shifting your mindset and her touchstones. Vivi unpacks her thoughts on transformation and how podcasting fits into her journey. She shares her personal practices, thoughts on success, and reflections on her beginnings and her own path. Vivian Carrasco is a wisdom teacher, mindset mentor, and podcaster based in Fort Worth, Texas. She encourages and coaches people to love being human; helping them find their truth, overcome fear and move forward on their heart’s path. Vivian works one on one with individuals and also created within university an online platform for people to come together on their journey of living from their core.

Craig (00:01:44):
For more information, go to moversmindset.com/96. This episode, as with the few recent ones, is also available as a video recording in our forum. But more interestingly, Vivian and I also recorded a podcast episode for her show, which is called Within You. And if you’re searching, the U has parentheses around it. We’ll link it in the show notes. But it was fun because we did a video recording, which is the audio for this podcast and then separately on a different day, we did an audio only recording for her show and then did a post audio recording video recording so we had a chance to talk in different contexts. So, if you don’t love this episode, I’m sorry, but if you like this one you can also get a completely different perspective by hearing her interview me and it’s a completely different episode from what her and I recorded. So, there you have it. Check it out. Thanks for listening.


Childhood role of movement [2:48]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:02:48):
(chapter) I already said good morning. I’ll probably just keep saying Viv. I’ll try and say Vivi. So many things to start with. I give you an easy one to start, what role did movement play in your childhood as you were growing up?

Vivian (00:03:04):
Such a delicious question. I love that. I grew up in West Texas and the Permian Basin area. Specifically, I’m going to credit [Pecos 00:03:15]. The role that movement played, my cousins and I, my aunt lived within a block of each other so we would just barefoot walk from one to the other all day.

Craig (00:03:25):
Oh, that’s a good thing. Barefoot.

Vivian (00:03:30):
Barefoot walking. I mean, in the caliche-

Craig (00:03:34):
I don’t have shoes on.

Vivian (00:03:35):
I don’t either.

Craig (00:03:37):
I’m not showing you my feet, though. There’s a limit.

Vivian (00:03:41):
I prefer not to have shoes on. It’s just a thing and I don’t know. Now that you’ve made a connection, maybe it’s from my youth. We would just walk, I mean in the hair. I mean, the hair, wild, the movement, wherever we wanted. Throughout the day, the only rule was to be back before sunset. My feet were so calloused, they were their own shoes. I literally recall stepping on a nail, pulling it out and there being no blood. There was just-

Craig (00:04:08):
Oh, just a little.

Vivian (00:04:10):
Yeah. So, movement, as a child was always just about freedom and play. It’s just natural for us to move 80% of our day, 20% we sleep.


Transformation [4:25]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:04:24):
(chapter) Certainly, where we all start. Sometimes I think I scare people because I go like, and I lock up and then they’re thinking, what is he going to ask me. I was like-

Vivian (00:04:33):
It’s the same way that I interview so I’m totally with you.

Craig (00:04:36):
I brought notes. I generally have notes but instead of just doing this, like what is he doing, I’m looking at my notes. You know what, I’m going to do this to you instead. Hold on. Internet for the whim. I love the internet. Okay, I’m going to read you a poem. Suddenly, stage fright.

Craig (00:04:55):
“You’re not trying to save the whole world or do anything grandiose. Instead, create a clearing in the dense forest of your life and wait there patiently until the song that is your life falls into your own cupped hands and you recognize and greet it. Only then will you know how to give yourself to this world so worth of rescue.” That was written by, oh that’s a hard last name, Martha Postlewaite. Yes? Yes, Postlewaite, which I’m reading – Vivian’s nodding – because I’m reading it from her blog. What made you share that?

Vivian (00:05:35):
We’re impatient, in general. I know when I went through my transformation, my dark years, when I look back on it, that’s one of the things that I recognize, is that I was so impatient that I wasn’t allowing myself to be still. My process took seven years. I’ve had the community about six years and that’s something that’s consistently, consistently come up in our conversations is when will this happen, why hasn’t it already happened? That poem just so beautifully invites you to be more patient with whatever process is happening. Because we don’t know how, we haven’t been taught how to shift our identity, how to move through change. It’s all very difficult for us as humans. It’s not how we were designed. That poem, it just encapsulates that so beautifully. For me, it was almost like an invitation, like what somebody might need to hear that’s going through, an inner transformation, outer change, whatever is happening. It’s like, be still.

Vivian (00:06:54):
Also, when you go into nature … One of the things that I love to do is sort of mirror our processes, how we change, the dynamics of what’s happening in us with what happens in nature. I used to do a practice called sit spot. You had to sit for at least 20 minutes before nature would readjust. Like when I go into the forest, I just playfully sort of very slowly, and the slower that I become, the more that the woods or the scenery or the environment around you becomes alive. It’s almost like I try to reflect what I learned in nature back into my own way of life. That’s why that poem is there. Because it is instructions.

Craig (00:07:47):
I got all excited when you talked about sit spot because it’s something I’ve done. Not really realizing what I was doing, and then I encountered another podcast guest who was talking about it. If you’re just listening, just went, “Wait, what’s that?” Please go look it up. Please go try it. You will discover you’re probably already doing it if you’re listening to this kind of podcasting content.

Craig (00:08:05):
I think it’s something that is inherently necessary that we do that type of, like a vitamin deficiency if you don’t get that. I mean, Western hemisphere society current culture, it’s something that most people are deficient of. I think a lot of people who listen, if anyone listens to this podcast, they’re probably more outdoor and movement oriented. But even then, there’s so much that we’re exposed to where the invitation is to turn back into the crazy person in the car, the crazy person in the grocery store, the crazy person in line, the crazy person in the post office. It’s really important to be mindful about going back to like, wait, wait, wait what am I not doing?


Mindset shifts [8:48]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:08:49):
(chapter) Obviously, this project is called Movers Mindset, so I’m stuck on mindset. Just for fun, I went to the dictionary. Mindset, what’s the definition is? Mindset most simply is a way of thinking or a fixed mental attitude or disposition. I hadn’t really realized that … I mean, obviously it’s got the word set in it, but I’m wondering … I’ll actually give you a question, I swear.

Craig (00:09:14):
You’ve obviously gone through a mindset shift, and I’m just wondering, do you feel like that one big one? Although I know there have been elements, there has to be like the empty nest mom, has to have been a mindset shift or the, oh my husband retired from the military, now there’s two of us in the house shift. But I’m just wondering, is one mindset shift, like one major one, enough for you or do you feel like now that you see how much better, maybe better is me putting words in your mouth, your life can be, well, I can’t wait for the next one?

Vivian (00:09:45):
Yeah, I have gotten over the fear of what will happen next, which pivot, which change is going to come up because it does get better every single time. It gets richer, it feels more alive. But in the beginning, yeah it was tough because I didn’t know how to move through that, and I am so grateful for every freaking minute of it. My life and my identity were built around my children. And so, when I had that emptiness, it was a big sort of melting of who am I now. Now, I look back on it nostalgically because I recognize that I am in another phase with them. They are adult men and we are becoming … You have to allow another type of relationship to arise. But that’s one of the things that actually comes up in my work, is this question of when will I be done? It’s a silly metaphor but I use it a lot because it relates very much to my life, is that we can’t think of ourselves as dinner. Like, you’re not going to make dinner and be done. We have to-

Craig (00:11:02):
That’s a new metaphor.

Vivian (00:11:03):
You’ve never heard this one, I promise. We are more like laundry.

Craig (00:11:06):
Wait, let me swallow. Okay, go ahead. We are more like laundry?

Vivian (00:11:11):
We’re like laundry. It just keeps coming and you have to just separate it and fold it and put it away. And then here’s the other thing. Both myself and in my clients. The icon that I use that actually was, I don’t know how to say it, it found me was this seashell, and this seashell turns towards its center. That’s what we do, we deepen as we turn towards our center. You might experience the same type of shift, but it’s just a little bit different. It’s almost like when you adjust, I don’t do a lot of rock climbing, but I have attempted it. You move slightly to get a better grip. When we’re taking this horizontal trip from our head to our heart, you’re doing the same thing. You’re going to continuously evolve. That’s the language that my folks use is it’s an evolution that is consistent. You stop looking for the finish line and you actually start to enjoy the movement, the journey through it.


Sea shell story [12:28]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:12:29):
(chapter) So many threads there. I’m not going down the rock. As much as I love rock climbing, I’m not going down that thread.

Vivian (00:12:36):
Do you want to hear the seashell story?

Craig (00:12:38):
Yeah. I’m torn between tell me the seashell story. So, yeah, let’s just go there. Any story you’d like to share.

Vivian (00:12:43):
There’s so many stories. This is-

Craig (00:12:46):
Seven.

Vivian (00:12:51):
I had gotten to the point where the nest was empty. The kids are coming out of the house, I had finished all of the accolades that society said would make me happy and fulfilled, terminal degree, a doctorate. I used to do international partnerships and I had gotten to the international piece, and after that there’s just not any higher wrung.

Craig (00:13:14):
Right.

Vivian (00:13:14):
I was like, what do you do after international? So, I got sad. I got sad because the finish line doesn’t look like what you said it would. Culture, what you said it would. Society. Did I climb the wrong ladder? Have I done this wrong my whole life? I was in a really introspective place. The word that I use that I’ve heard that I can’t say myself is malaise.

Craig (00:13:43):
Suddenly I went, “Oh, that’s easy to say,” and then my brain went, “No, I can’t pronounce malaise.”

Vivian (00:13:47):
Say it, Craig. Say it.

Craig (00:13:49):
Malaise.

Vivian (00:13:50):
Malaise. See? It just even feels like, malaise. It was the whole season of my life.

Vivian (00:13:57):
I had these beautiful girlfriends who we took a girlfriends’ weekend in North Carolina near the Outer Banks. We were walking along the beach and I was just like, I’m surrendering. I give up. There’s no way for me to figure this out. I don’t know what I’ve done wrong, I don’t know how to do it right because it’s just not aligned. In that moment, I said to myself, internally, I was like I just need help. I need something to guide me. In that exact moment, I felt something under my foot because I was walking barefoot. I felt something under my foot. I stopped, paused the conversation, and I dug in the earth. I had dug up, and it’s right behind me on this shell. It’s actually a shallow depth of field you can’t see it.

Craig (00:14:50):
Why is it so hard to point at things in your video of yourself? Yes, it’s right there.

Vivian (00:14:55):
But it is huge. And so, I dug it up and I thought to myself this symbol is what’s going to guide me through this process. And it did. Just that turning inward, that listening. It’s just that seashell has been a sort of touchstone for me.

Craig (00:15:16):
Thank you for sharing that. I was just thinking about there is something about the sound of the surf, and I think it just comes from the fact that it’s low frequency and it’s this big thing that you know is going to exist before you or after you while you’re there. I mean, like a teenage maniac on the beach. For most people, it brings you down. Not like bummer down, but it brings you back to the grounding, so I think that’s a great, great story. Six more?

Vivian (00:15:50):
Definitely. This is a dozen. You know I’m an overachiever.


Movement [15:55]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:15:55):
(chapter) Yeah, I also want to talk about podcasting. But if there’s another story that’s bursting to come out, let’s do that.

Vivian (00:16:01):
Well, what’s coming up for me in the moment isn’t really a story about me, it is the idea of movement and how you said how did I move as a child. One of the things … I don’t know if you, are you familiar with this ring, this Oura ring?

Craig (00:16:15):
Oh. I said the word oh. I think it’s a movie. My name is Oh. Yeah, it’s an Oura ring I think it is. Is that what …?

Vivian (00:16:25):
Yeah.

Craig (00:16:26):
Yeah. And it’s actually, you have a computer around your finger that measures … Yes, go ahead. I am passingly familiar with it.

Vivian (00:16:33):
The reason that I have it is because the focus in my life right now, because there’s always something that’s going to bring you up to another level, is the amount of movement I have in my life. The ring keeps reminding me that I’m not moving enough. I mean, this type of lifestyle, pandemic, within four walls. So, movement, it’s just, it’s just so important. I just wanted to … I’m taking this opportunity to segue into thanking you for the focus that you’re putting on movement and the mindset around it, and how enriching it makes our lives. I mean, even though I live in a house, I could sleep outside if it wasn’t cold and the pillow wasn’t so-

Craig (00:17:17):
I will say, that the mosquitoes [crosstalk 00:17:20] mosquitoes show up.

Vivian (00:17:21):
But I see that as a gap in my life that I need to fill because I just remembered how I sleep so soundly, I eat the right amount, it regulated. Because I moved so much as a child, it regulated everything about me in such a natural way that now I have to consciously work at doing it.


Lessons from podcasting [17:45]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:17:45):
(chapter) Sometimes I try to hold like a thread through the whole … Make the whole podcast make sense. I gave up. I gave up like episodes. Screw that.

Craig (00:17:57):
I’m always debating, like how much of the context do we need for this to make sense? In the context of podcasting, podcast geek sidetrack, you do host on mic which is basically Vivi talking. Although I often do these slower queries where it’s me talking forever, I’m not doing that. I’m doing two people talking. I’m wondering, what is the experience like for you … I mean, we can geek out on nuts and bolts of podcasting stuff, but what’s the experience for you of using it as an outlet for your own transformation? Some people go for a walk, but you’re also using this tool of basically speaking into the void, because even if you look at the download numbers, people aren’t responding. You’re basically like in a little sensory deprivation chamber by yourself and you’re talking to this stuff. So, what has the experience been for you using podcasting as a tool for your journey? I’m curious.

Vivian (00:18:55):
That’s a really good question. Actually, I didn’t know if it’s a cough or a burp, but I was like, I get it so [inaudible 00:19:00].

Craig (00:19:01):
I’ll take the opportunity to go, [inaudible 00:19:03].

Vivian (00:19:02):
Oh, my goodness. Podcasting, I often don’t know what I’m thinking until I’m saying it out loud. Way back in 2014, podcasting was the way that I unfolded the message that I was given because basically that’s what I feel happened at the end of my transformation. God or divine or whatever name you call. God [crosstalk 00:19:34].

Craig (00:19:36):
Whatever you able to [inaudible 00:19:37]. Right.

Vivian (00:19:36):
Yeah. It was like, you got it, now go teach it. You have to share this. You don’t get to just keep it. I’m like, not for me. But when I mustered up my courage, the only way to move that through me was through my voice, and recording it and then listening to it and understanding it. It is still unfolding all these years later. It is now becoming actually more tangible. I go, “Oh, I get it,” because it keeps repeating and repeating and repeating.

Vivian (00:20:08):
So, podcasting, for me initially was a way that I unfolded my message, my platform for the world. But now, it’s different because I do have a community. It’s an invisible conversation. Right now, I can physically see you but when I’m host on mic, I am having a conversation hopefully with the listener.

Craig (00:20:37):
What do you have in front of you when you do that? Because I’m not quite sure what do you look at?

Vivian (00:20:40):
I can’t turn my camera around, but right behind me there’s a wall of hand painted pictures from my kids and my nephews and nieces. This is really odd, but there’s a picture literally right in my eye view here. If I’m sitting here and then I’m looking at this picture, and it’s this circle man. I just imagine talking to my kids’ daughters. This is for me a way to create a legacy. Like when we teach, when we speak, we’re sharing what we think will help somebody’s life get better or what we’ve learned through our own life about what makes it fun, and exciting and where we geek out. That’s what I do. I imagine the generation that hasn’t been born yet.

Craig (00:21:34):
I’m like, drop the mic. Excellent answer.

Vivian (00:21:37):
You know my kids are adults, right?

Craig (00:21:43):
I’m aware of that, yeah. I don’t actually even think I’ve ever heard you say any of your children’s name. I’m not fishing for details but, I mean, I know that you have kids, but I don’t know anything about them.

Vivian (00:21:52):
I think they’re okay with it. And if they’re not, they should listen to my podcast.

Craig (00:21:59):
Now, choir, pay attention.

Vivian (00:22:03):
It’s Josh and Jake. Josh is turning 29 and Jacob is 25.

Craig (00:22:11):
You know what I think the hardest part about having two people, like this two talking heads, the hardest part is I always feel like I’m denigrating, devaluing what you just said when I try to talk about something else. It’s really hard because I’m like, that was really cool and now I’m still thinking, oh right, I forgot I have to talk to these people. That for me is really hard. I was just writing about this other day, the participatory experience of creating a thing. I don’t know how engaged you are in how we’re creating a thing as a meta processor but I’m thinking what’s in the background? What’s in the back over there? Do we have you already? There’s a whole process of creation that takes brain power and then there’s the whole process of I just wanna have a conversation with Vivi.

Vivian (00:22:59):
You know, that’s interesting because that’s what I do when I have an interview on my podcast. I literally am just having conversation with that person. Right now, I was talking to you, what I found is that I, as a listener to a podcast, put myself in play of it, right? It’s like, “Oh really? And then you did what?” And so, if we are dancing with each other in this conversation, my opinion is that the listener will kind of move with it too.

Craig (00:23:36):
Be drawn.

Vivian (00:23:37):
Yeah. But thanks for bringing that up. That’s …

Craig (00:23:42):
Well then, now I’m going, whoa, but that means you’re trying to play Solitaire when … Yeah, right. That’s a rabbit hole. The difference between clipping. The difference between when you’re trying to co-create … Nobody asked me anything about podcasting, but what I’m actually trying to do is to create a space where two or sometimes the most fun is bring three people together who all know each other really well and then try to insert yourself as the fourth person in a conversation.

Craig (00:24:10):
Oh my god, that’s fun. But, to create a space where the people that are here with me are willing to just take a leap and to see what we end up like, well I don’t know, what’s the experience going to be. Just jump kind of thing. That’s really why don’t I just have Zoom calls with Vivi on a Thursday morning. I’m like, that’s a good idea, why don’t I do that? But also, why are we recording? Because I think there’s a lot of value that … I mean, I was going to say people don’t realize they have value to share. You are well aware that you have value to share but a lot of people don’t realize, a lot of people I talk to they’re just like, “Little old me. Well, I don’t know.” I’m like, trust me. Just keep talking. I’m off rambling again.

Vivian (00:24:47):
I think everybody sort of … I think that’s a good point. Everyone feels that. Everyone doubts themselves in some point. I don’t know if it’s because of the way that I create, but a lot of the times I’m surprised when I listen to something that I record because I consider it a co-creation. It is a co-creation. Right now, there’s four of us or six of us here.

Vivian (00:25:19):
In the last decade especially, I have really come to recognize my own tradition, my own ancestors, and just the meta of the difference between what is physical and seen and how much of this world is invisible. Like Albert Einstein talked about how we have invisible mountains of energy that sort of move us through the world, right? That felt like intended to me, but I just wanted to say we all doubt ourselves. Whoever we are, regardless of what platform you have or whether you-

Craig (00:25:58):
Or don’t have. If you’re doubting yourself about … I tell people all the time, start journaling. If you can hear me, go get a pen. Not a pencil. Go get a pen and start writing stuff down because when you look at your journal entries 10 years later you’re going to be like, “What? Oh. That was not a big deal, bro.” But to be able to look back on that stuff, which I do every morning, to look back on that stuff is like, “I don’t even remember that.” I mean, “Look, I clearly was in the hospital. I thought I had a heart attack.” It was clearly this was a big deal, but I can’t even remember what that felt like. So, even just capturing stuff for yourself is super useful.

Craig (00:26:33):
But you were talking before about recording, trying not to mess your words up, recording for the next generation. I’ve heard podcasts with really famous people who’ve talked about like, “Yeah, I kind of was podcasting in the 60s with my 8 track.” I was making recordings of myself. Not that I’m looking forward to listening to myself, but when I record something, it’s like I can listen back on that. People could do that with just your iPhone or your Android and just hit record and record voice memos for yourself, and then please save it somewhere because if you lose it, you’ll be so distraught. But, being able to sort of sneak up on your past self and catch it from a fresh perspective. It will never be completely objective, but I think …


Transformation [27:22]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:27:22):
(chapter) Oh, I’m getting a question. They kind of come out. They come in from somewhere else.

Craig (00:27:27):
The question I’m having is, do you think it would be possible for somebody to have one of these big mindset changes if they didn’t have some way of either grounding themselves or some way of referring back? Can you just sit in a cave or sit at your desk job and hope that this transition is going to happen, or do you have to be putting in some, maybe not literally, daily effort like, for me, journaling and the blogging. I have a blog. I write something every day. For me, these are processes. Why am I doing this? I don’t know. It’s a pain in the ass. I mean, it’s really a pain in the ass, but I know that 10 years later that worked out really well, so I’m putting that in as my personal effort to work on myself. So, I’m wondering, do you think that it’s necessary that somebody do that?

Vivian (00:28:20):
I dived into the research during and after, and so I’ve kept up with it since then, on transformation. That interchange. How the mindset can shift. If I recall correctly, there are three major ways that we can think different, right? The first is an outside trauma, like a car accident or something changes significantly on the outside and boom. You’re adjusting to that.

Vivian (00:28:52):
And then … Oh, goodness. I lost the second one. But the third one is drip by drip. Because as human beings, we have to … We don’t know who we are, but we don’t even know our design. So, as a human being, the way that we learn is consistent practice over a period of time. So, I am huge on the daily, but I am very gentle and open to what that daily practice is. The daily practice could be, like right now, I don’t know if the camera is catching it, but if you were to just watch the smoke or the, what is this called?

Craig (00:29:30):
Yeah, the steam.

Vivian (00:29:30):
Steam rise from my tea, that would open a space in my mind to allow something else to come in. One of the things I get upset about is the idea that you have to do something a certain way and that you can do it right or wrong. I mean, if it’s … you’re going to fall or if it’s danger, that’s different but-

Craig (00:29:54):
Effed up. You know, you can eff things up but there’s not right and wrong.

Vivian (00:29:59):
It is your way, and your way changes by the season that you’re in. I used to do sit spot. If I hadn’t let go of sit spot, I wouldn’t be doing the practice I’m doing now. You move through these things, and some things click and some things don’t. You will be invited. So, to answer your question, my opinion is that you are consistently invited to transform, consistently invited to change but because of our design, we’re pulled back into a form, an identity, a role-

Craig (00:30:30):
Yeah, a stability.

Vivian (00:30:31):
A role because of safety, right? We want safety and we want connection and we need that. I mean, it’s a human need. Every animal needs it.

Vivian (00:30:41):
(quote) When I was going through my transformation, the biggest pain point for me was when you have a loved one that’s closer. Even my kids are like, “Why are you changing? You’re good the way you are.” That will pull you back. But you’re constantly … The bus is going to come again and you can get on. The one thing that I want to say to your listeners is you didn’t miss your opportunity. It’s going to come back around. You’re being invited to open, to change, to have a new way of thinking. It’s just going to come again. You didn’t miss the bus. (/quote)


Important work [31:18]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:31:18):
(chapter) I love silence. There’s too much Craig in this show, anyway. We’re just going to cut all of me out and just be-

Vivian (00:31:24):
Absolutely not. You’re a genius, and I’m going to say it on the record. I-

Craig (00:31:28):
Give me some examples. I don’t mean like, Craig already has an ego problem. What I’m thinking is like what about what I’m doing do you think is genius?

Vivian (00:31:43):
Well, one of the things that … There are three levels of Craig genius I want to touch on.

Craig (00:31:48):
[inaudible 00:31:48] do.

Vivian (00:31:50):
The first one is your role in community. I have observed you. You are a teacher. You’re a mentor and you do that naturally. That’s a lot of hard work. I know it is, and so I just want to tell you, dude, you are rocking it. I watch for what you post because it teaches me. So, thank you for that.

Vivian (00:32:12):
The second one is, you and I got a chance to work on a very tiny project together and I had a glimpse of all of the knowledge in there about all the things. And so, secondly, I admired that because I’m a nerd. And then, this. This takes a lot of work. I mean-

Craig (00:32:31):
Oh, god. Yes.

Vivian (00:32:33):
I know how much work this takes and you guys do an amazing production. I mean, the show notes, the time stamps, the video and audio. I am just like goals right here. Seriously.

Craig (00:32:49):
A lot of time we’re like, here, ripping out right here.

Vivian (00:32:52):
But the other thing in the meta across all of that, and this site, I’m going to adjust because I need to move, and you said it was cool that I move.

Craig (00:32:59):
Yeah, you can move.

Vivian (00:33:00):
I got to move a standstill and then my levels will change hopefully so I can get the green.

Vivian (00:33:07):
Okay, so the other thing, and I think the thing for me that I want to sort of umbrella this whole thing is a word that anchors me a lot. The word is metanoia. It’s originally Greek. Sometimes it’s translated in a scripture as repent but it’s actually a greater mind. The mover’s mindset is actually, for me, a core. It’s a central teaching that the world needs to hear. We soften our hearts and we change our minds. Without doing those two things regularly, we can’t live a rich life. I mean, we just can’t. Outside of the nutrition and the physical, the life that is available to us, just by seeing something differently, thinking about something differently, adding a new perspective is a rainbow, right? It’s a myriad of things out there. If we don’t have training or practice in how to do that, then we just can’t step up that next ladder. So, you’re doing an important work, dude.

Craig (00:34:24):
Right back at you, dudette.


Capriciousness of success [34:25]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:34:26):
(chapter) I looked at what you’ve done. It’s a sight gag. People, if you’re only hearing me say it, within university there’s a parentheses around the U, the first U in university. [inaudible 00:34:38] university. It’s all about we want to go within university, but I loved the way that you built the program. I haven’t signed up, sorry, but I loved the way that you built it and that you’ve created a community and, I was going to say it’s all encompassing but that’s the wrong word. It’s basically the lesson that you’re sharing here today in a repeatably deliverable place where people can be on the journey together with each other.

Craig (00:35:09):
Yeah, I’m a podcast geek. One of the things I wanted to ask you is, hey why did you stop? I haven’t heard from you in a while in the podcast. Did my podcast player stop? The way that you sound is spectacular and I’m just like, oh, I got to drink lemon juice or something before I talk because it doesn’t sound as good as Vivi does. I think you’re doing a great job with how you show up, and I just don’t mean the sound of your voice. How you show up in your episodes. On my notes I was like, I want to ask you about, I’m going to say, the capriciousness of success. I don’t mean like how are you successful. You can do everything.

Craig (00:35:50):
I mean, I’m going to suspect that you have the same feeling that I do, which is like, I don’t have any idea how any of this is working. I have no clue what’s going on. I’m just doing what I think I’m drawn to do and people seem to like it, so I’m going to keep going. I’m just wondering, because I suspect everybody has the same voice in their head and anybody who has even the slightest modicum of success has the same, “I don’t know how this is working, but I’m going to keep doing it.” I’m just wondering … You’re nodding along vigorously. I don’t know what the video is, probably focused on me. I’m just wondering what your thoughts are when I say capriciousness of success.

Vivian (00:36:23):
I don’t know what capriciousness means.

Craig (00:36:27):
Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to do that. So, capriciousness is like-

Vivian (00:36:30):
No, no, no. Go ahead.

Craig (00:36:31):
… I don’t have any idea why I got the winning lottery ticket. Capricious is just like there’s no rhyme, there’s no reason, it’s not reproducible. I’ve heard even people like Tim Ferriss who is wildly successful, say, “I don’t know. I just wrote a book and it’s just like everything came together and all of the sudden it was this juggernaut. And then I thought, maybe I’ll do a podcast and then that exploded.” He says that he is forever grateful to all the people who supported him because he’s like, “There’s no way that I did this.” I mean, I did all the things. For me, I’m like, yeah, I got a checklist with 700 things on it and there’s people that work with me but all I did was these 14 things. I could give them all in 20 minutes or longer.

Craig (00:37:17):
(highlight) To me it’s like, why does that equal success? Like there’s magic sauce here that I feel like I didn’t put that in and I can’t reproduce it. I don’t know what it is. So, the capricious is just like, I don’t know how this works. It just happened.

Vivian (00:37:29):
For me, that’s actually divided up into two realms. The first one is, yes, that is the way that I live my life. I follow the flow and then it works out. A person shows up, an opportunity shows up, a framework shows up. One of the things that’s interesting for me in the last couple of years is as we move through … In my community, we go through seasons. We follow the seasons, and I call them journeys of discovery. What the members, students … they’re my girls, you know what I mean?

Craig (00:38:09):
These people.

Vivian (00:38:10):
Yeah, they’re my peeps. What they’re doing is they’re showing me steps. They’re showing me, oh, we do this. They’re giving it texture because I unconsciously do this, right? And so, as they’re moving through it with me, then they’re getting into the rhythm, kind of like on a dance floor. And then they’re showing me and then I understand it a little bit more, which is why, I think you’ll be very, very excited. One of the things that’s happened in the last year is almost a framework for an undercurrent of how to invite transformation. It’s a backload of catalog. Episodes are going to come out really soon, I promise you. I can’t wait to get your feedback on them, but I’m excited for them to publish.

Vivian (00:38:58):
So, that’s what’s happening. Yes, I don’t know how the heck, right? And I’m learning as it comes back to me. It’s almost a circle. Secondly, I really want to talk about … Because for me, if you can imagine, if you’re listening, I believe that words frame your life. If you have a frame, like a picture frame, and the word life is in the middle, then there are words all around it that frame your experience. Success is one of those words.

Vivian (00:39:30):
So, my definition of success is probably not what other people define as success, but they would define what I do successful. Does that make sense?

Craig (00:39:43):
I think so.

Vivian (00:39:44):
I don’t measure, although my CPA was like, “You know, dude, you’re going to get audited if this doesn’t make money soon.” I remember her saying that.

Craig (00:39:56):
Joint the club. High five.

Vivian (00:39:59):
But it is now.

Craig (00:40:00):
Have all receipts, yeah.

Vivian (00:40:00):
Exactly. It is now. It’s totally legit and I just waited. Things take time. It is successful because I hear things from folks that say it made a difference or it matters, or whatever. (/highlight)

Craig (00:40:16):
Yeah. When you hear someone say it, it’s like, okey dokey. I have had other podcast guests say really nice things afterwards and I was just like, “Oh, thanks for that,” because now I can never stop. I mean, I was already like, “I’m not sure. I think this is good,” and then people say things and I was like, “Okay, I got to keep going.” Shuffle the life into the woodstove thing.

Vivian (00:40:39):
Thank you for saying that because I’m actually thinking December’s a good time to end. Publish the back catalog in 2020.

Craig (00:40:49):
We recently started doing … I don’t know where it was when I recently, like a year ago, just like discovered the idea of seasons in the podcast. I was like, “Right. I can stop [inaudible 00:41:02].” We’re like in this weekly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I was like, no, we can just stop, take a break. We took a break and it was like, oh right, we can have a life because if you’re publishing every week, it’s just a berserk grind. Now, we have, I don’t exactly what number you will be, you’ll be in the 90s. We’re like, 87 went out yesterday and we have every episode up to 100. It’s like I know what it’s going to be. We know who it is. It’s either recorded already or there’s one more to record. It’s all laid out. Let’s see if I can make this relate to anybody who is a podcaster. So, there’s something to be said for. Just do the drip by drip. Just show up. Just create. Just go to the atelier and paint.

Craig (00:41:47):
But there’s also something to be said for showing up some days and going, you know I really feel like I’ve done enough oil painting. I’m going to move all the cool stuff over here and I’m going to make this space. I don’t know what I’m going to do yet but I’m just going to make a space." So, yeah. I think the idea that you’re working on a catalog and that you have a plan to release it, but then you also know that you’ll be done with it like that, that block of stuff. Whereas I got into a vicious cycle where we had no concept of where the end would be. It was just like N plus one, keep going. I think that was something that I learned. I think I literally learned that through podcasting, like let’s invent a process that is absolutely unsustainable and then a little bit more people. So, yeah. Whoops! I see what you did there.


Presence and priority [42:39]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:42:35):
(chapter) Sometimes when I get desperate for things to ask, I will say, was there anything on your mind on your way to the interview that you were thinking? “Oh, I hope we get to talk about …”

Vivian (00:42:48):
I recognize. You didn’t give me questions ahead of time-

Craig (00:42:51):
I never do.

Vivian (00:42:53):
I don’t do that for the folks that I interview either. I am imagining that it’s nerve wracking for folks. For me, it was delightful because it is sort of born in the moment, right? And I just want to look back to what you said about capricious success. For folks that are listening, they’re already interested in a mindset change, right?

Craig (00:43:24):
Yeah. How far in are we here? [inaudible 00:43:26] in something. Yeah, whatever. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. But yeah, we’re like 45 minutes in here. If you’re listening …

Vivian (00:43:34):
This is a way. It’s not the way, and it may not be your way, but being open to the unknown, not knowing what questions you’re going to ask me, not knowing what conversation we’re going to get in. This is my notes for today. They were blank. There’s nothing here. And then I wrote down metanoia because I wanted to come back to it, it was like tickling my head. But this is a way to do that. We carry so much stuff.

Vivian (00:44:06):
I’ve been married to my husband three decades. And if I allowed it to, I could carry three thank you. I could carry lots of experiences with me. But what I do is, in the moment, see him as who he is.

Craig (00:44:20):
What’s today.

Vivian (00:44:21):
Exactly. What is happening right now, and that’s really tough to do. I tell folks that we have been in three different marriages with the same person. I have been in three different marriages with the same person because we’ve allowed each other to grow and change. That’s kind of what was coming up, is this movement. I feel like this is what keeps coming up, in having this conversation with you, is that movement is physical and it is also a way that we can move through the world, we can move through our life, we can move through our experience. We have to learn how we do that best.

Vivian (00:45:04):
You know, I block time things. I look at energy levels throughout the day. I don’t feel free and I don’t feel like I have control over myself if I’m setting a specific time to do a specific thing, and then I don’t do it and then I’m mad at myself, and then … We can live better if we allow ourselves to move more freely.

Craig (00:45:29):
I’m my own worst critic. I like planning the day and then I write on them like, “Okay now, cross half that stuff off, Craig,” because there’s no way. [inaudible 00:45:38]. I say frequently, do one thing and cross off two. Like, I did that one, and this one goes right over the transom, skipping that entirely just to try and keep it. Because I have so many things that I would like to do that … Well, I have little touch phrase. I just looked to the right, there’s a thing over there on the wall and there’s a couple of pictures and a big writing that says, “2020, get less done.” It’s what actually says on the wall.

Vivian (00:46:10):
Amen.

Craig (00:46:11):
Okay, how can I not do all the things that I want to do? Because then, I could to the one thing that I really am drawn to do. I always am torn between … See, Movers Mindset comes from me looking for an available domain name. That’s where the name comes from. I was like, we got to find a domain name that works. And then I was like, well that actually fits. The more that we’ve done with the project, the more it really fits the name, but I really was not thinking ahead. I’m called to investigate mindset, and that’s what the project is going to be. The project was literally I have no idea what I’m doing, but I want to talk to people. I kept finding myself in cool conversations with random people in random places around the world. And then I was like, maybe I should record these, and it just got out of hand. I didn’t set out with a map. I normally feel like I’ve made a map that I can hand to someone else.

Craig (00:47:03):
(highlight) It’s definitely, in a lot of ways, I feel like I’m learning what the artists learned much earlier. Like, yeah, just go stick … There’s a book on the bookshelf here called Hands in Clay, which is about throwing clay pottery. I was like, I don’t know what I’m doing. [inaudible 00:47:19] start. Then it falls over. I’m like, “Okay, that was awesome. Do it again.” That’s all I’m doing with podcasting with the conversations I’m having.

Vivian (00:47:27):
But don’t we do that as kids? Isn’t that how we learned?

Craig (00:47:30):
Absolutely. And somewhere along the way, you can draw the line where, and then I stopped doing that. So, that’s a mistake.

Vivian (00:47:37):
That’s a really good reflection. Reflective questions are a big thing that that kind of allow a space in your head, allow a piece of novelty if you’re asking yourself a reflective question. That’s a reflective question, what did I enjoy to do as a kid?

Vivian (00:47:55):
As I was listening to you, the other thing that I thought of is the 80-20 principle and the 4% and then the one percent, right? Do less is a very good mantra because when you do less, you’ll do what’s most important first. And then, the other thing I wrote down is you were talking about the map because I get a little, I’m trying to think of a word. It’s not upset. The ladies call it, “Vivian, can you put shoes on that?” Like, can you put shoes on that?

Craig (00:48:28):
Yeah. I think you’re looking for the word indignant. I get indignant when I hear people [inaudible 00:48:31] but keep going. Well, I haven’t heard the phrase can you put shoes on that, but I know exactly what you mean.

Vivian (00:48:35):
Yeah. I think about that a lot as we’re moving through stuff. But when you said I can’t give you a map, even if we gave them a map, the map is not the terrain. I mean, it’s not-

Craig (00:48:47):
Yes. And it’s not useful without a compass either. Not to be metaphorically [crosstalk 00:48:51].

Vivian (00:48:51):
Amen. You got a map, you need to know the terrain and you need to have a compass. If we were to reflect that back into the way we live, your compass are your values which are going to tell you what to do of the 4% or the 20%. The terrain is who am I? What do I want and what am I becoming?

Craig (00:49:11):
Can I get there from here? I want to go that way. But that’s not going to happen, right?

Vivian (00:49:15):
So you’re going to do a switchback and you’re going to get there. But yeah, I think that’s something that our culture needs a lot of, is do less because when you do less, you’ll do the more important stuff, and we don’t know how to shift from. I did. It took a lot. But, shifting from a type A overachiever, I don’t feel like I add value unless I’m overworking to just, I’m a recovering type A. I can get into that mode, but I prefer to follow my flow, stay with my energy, focus on what matters, keep the important things important. Which is why I don’t have a lot of public engagement outside of the podcast. I focus the majority of my attention and time on the people that I work with. That’s just, I don’t have space. I’m doing a challenge right now, a daily challenge, because we’re not in a journey. But outside of that, my attention is on my humans, my people. (/highlight)

Craig (00:50:24):
Yeah. Fellow travelers.


Perspective [50:27]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:50:26):
(chapter) What I’m debating is Craig story or not the Craig story. Okay, Craig story. I’ll fast forward about six minutes. I fancy myself an outdoor rock climber. By which, I mean I really am into it And I know when I’m doing bad but I’m the wrong body type and I love food too much. But I have friends who rock climb and I know the rock climbing is within reasonable distance. I want to go to Utah and blah, blah, blah. So, I had some-

Vivian (00:50:55):
I love Utah.

Craig (00:50:55):
Oh, Utah. It’s amazing. Utah, Arizona, Red Rocks. I’ve been to Colorado. Okay, all right, that’s for another six minutes.

Craig (00:51:06):
So, someone who I went rock climbing with, I think I climbed one or two pitches on a whole day. We hiked all over the freaking place. I’m carrying a gear. It was like a real slog of a day. I mean, not hot or bad, but just there wasn’t a lot of rock climbing. At the end of the day, this person said to me, "You know, I feel like you didn’t really get to rock climb much today even though it was a two-and-a-half-hour drive each way and we have all this gear and we did all this stuff. And it hadn’t even … I mean, I was aware of how many pitches I had climbed, but to me I was like, no, I’ve been rock climbing the whole day. I got up at 5:30 like I usually do, and I was rock climbing from the moment I woke up. I was like, “Yeah, rock climbing. Whoo!”

Craig (00:51:40):
You know, get my gear, do the thing, car ride with people that I enjoy talking to, and do the thing. And I’m out in the woods, in the sun and it’s cold or it’s wet. To me, and I’m not saying that most rock climbers have this wrong, but I’m saying there is a way to look at an activity and say I’m a swimmer. You know, that happens when I’m in the pool. And there’s a way to look at an activity versus the way I look at rock climbing. It’s like, no. I mean, I’m a rock climber. I’m rock climbing right now, in my mind. To be entirely immersed in the whole activity. And people could be saying, I’m a podcaster, I’m a parkour athlete, I do [inaudible 00:52:17]. Whatever your thing is, do you think of, I do the thing, I identify myself with that thing, but do you mean the textbook thing that everybody else would recognize as the thing or do you mean the thing is my whole life?

Craig (00:52:36):
(highlight) Okay, question in two parts. What is your thing and when did you realize that it feels like eating your entire life and had become this is what I do all the time? I’m going to guess there’s an epoch word, your thing was mom. That was like a whole I’m momming full time, but I’m wondering what might that thing be now and when did you realize that that had become all encompassing? Or, I’m completely wrong is another option.

Vivian (00:53:02):
That’s so delicious. There’s two parts to that too. You’re like both ends, okay? The first part, I want to relate it back to the way we move through our lives. People think that when they’re meditating, they’re in a room by themselves, sitting on the floor, you can move through your entire life in a meditative state. I love that you said I’m rock climbing from the moment I opened my eyes until I’m reflecting on that day. That little grin right there, right? Dude, that one reach. That’s a beautiful way to live because if you focus on just that one thing, like my guys and I, I don’t do it as much as they do, but they’re doing downhill mountain biking.

Craig (00:53:52):
I’ve done some of that on accident. No. Sorry, go ahead.

Vivian (00:53:57):
That’s the same kind of thing. It’s the fixing the bike, it’s the cleaning the bike, it’s the carrying the bike, it’s the mud in the bike.

Craig (00:54:04):
The car ride to the bike-

Vivian (00:54:06):
To the place, right. It’s the trek up in the lowest gear, which is walking, right? It’s the whole thing. And so, I love that you said that and I want to invite the listeners to sort of look at their thing, their activity. Are you putting a box around it or are you really experiencing it, like pull out the whole time?

Vivian (00:54:31):
The second thing, to actually answer your question, I do a lot of reflection. Some people call it navel-gazing, but I’m just like, I can’t see my nose unless I’m looking in a camera or in a mirror. I figure I’m not going to get to know who I am unless I’m really looking back. We don’t do a good job of looking back. We are more focused, as a culture, moving forward. How fast am I going? Where am I getting to? Not, how far have I come? What are the connections? I actually, for a period of time, reflected on exactly what you just said. What is my thing? Just because I wanted it to have something tangible to it.

Vivian (00:55:12):
What I recognized over my whole life, the thread that’s connected my whole life is interrelationships, it’s connections. I mean, my dissertation is on interorganizational collaboration. The partnership development phase that I did in my first career, it was all about getting people to work together, and I think I learned that in my huge family. My grandmother has had birth 15 kids, 13 are still alive, and I might have that wrong. Mommy, I’m sorry. But, can you imagine? And her mother had 13 kids, so I have a huge family. I learned very early that there are different perspectives. There could be four sisters in the same room having the same experience and each of them remember something differently.(/highlight)

Craig (00:55:59):
And they’re like 28 years apart, right? These are not like we’re all playing Frisbee together. It’s like, this one got kids and this one is still a teenager.

Vivian (00:56:07):
Yeah. So, growing up, I’m like learning how we work together as humans and connection is one of those primary needs. So, the thread throughout my life has been connection, and I do it in everything that I do.

Vivian (00:56:21):
What’s gotten me through the pandemic is this ritual that we’ve created, and it’s a Monday night steak dinner. Sometimes I have themes. The guys will roll their eyes, but they love it. They really do. I know they do. We made gingerbread houses this last Monday. I’ll incorporate things that we do. We have, in the beginning, we eat, we do our thing, and then at the end, we play spades. We’re huge spades family. We have a championship belt and the whole thing.

Vivian (00:56:55):
(quote) This ceremony, this ritual, this connection, this making meaningful moments is just the way that I’ve lived my whole life. I’m just now started to really taste it and really feel it and really look forward to it. It just has happened in my roles in life, but now I’m creating it intentionally, which is a whole another level. (/quote) Thanks for that question.

Craig (00:57:19):
I was going to say, you’re really good at fielding. Sometimes I throw crazy questions like that and people just go like, “I heard a word …” I think it takes a special mind to be able to …


Walking down Broadway [57:35]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (00:57:34):
(chapter) What I’m thinking is do we record the part where I said it’s like walking down Broadway? No, I didn’t record that part. I often tell the guests before we start that this is like walking down a street, Broadway, New York City, if you’ve been there, and there’s just like, we can’t experience all this.

Craig (00:57:51):
It’s like, I’m thinking about color donuts and you’re thinking about bacon wrap, whatever, and we’re just having a conversation about what we’re experiencing. Might be time for lunch soon. That, I think, the way that you answered that question showed me that you’re not just, what did he say? What’s the answer? It’s like, I’m passing you a wacky idea and you’re like, yeah, that’s interesting. It makes me think about this idea. I think that’s what makes podcasting for me work, is either I’m getting lucky or I’m picking intentionally people who are interested in going on the conversational journey. Of course, this should have led to a question, but it doesn’t.

Vivian (00:58:29):
Well, I just wanted to put a pen a little bit on walking down Broadway. The imagery that I had in mind when you send that is side by side. Because as human beings, we can’t, the looking in … I actually studied those because I studied my guys. When I connect with them, I actually connect with them doing an activity or side by side. Never face to face.

Craig (00:58:58):
Face to face.

Vivian (00:58:59):
Yeah. So, it just made this connection with me. I don’t know, but when you’re walking down Broadway, focused on the conversation, the memory of that experience is going to be so deep and so rich because it’s going to be tied to your experience with another human being. Because there’s so many things that we can take pictures of places that we’ve been, and they have no meaning if there’s not a person or a story in it, right?

Craig (00:59:27):
Yep.

Vivian (00:59:28):
I’m just segueing into I feel really honored to be a guest on your podcast and I just wanted to thank you.

Craig (00:59:34):
I was like, I haven’t talked to Vivi yet. I got to [inaudible 00:59:38].

Vivian (00:59:38):
I was like, Craig! Yes! Two hours?

Craig (00:59:42):
Yeah. Most people don’t know that we ask for two hours of your time. Some people, I have actually never had anybody say no. People were like, “Okay, I’m in.”

Vivian (00:59:51):
Because it’s you. Oh, gosh. I was so honored. Thank you.

Craig (00:59:56):
You’re very welcome. Okay, fine. Thank you. I often tell people, “Learn to accept the compliment,” so thank you for saying so.

Vivian (01:00:04):
You’re welcome.


Beginning blogging [1:00:09]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (01:00:09):
(chapter) Okay, this is going to sound a little trite, but I don’t think it’s going to lead us to trite conversations. I’m going to say, this is going to sound crazy, dear listeners, if you have no idea what I’m talking about, but tell me about the fan belt. Where did the idea for that first blog post come from? I’m assuming that you know what I’m talking about. If not, you’re okay. Yes, the story would be interesting, but what I’m really curious about is, clearly, because it’s the first blog post, you went from whatever the idea or story or whatever it is you’re about to go, here it is. That a thing that you had and the other people will have similar experiences. You can’t not have those. How, what, why did you get from that to like, that’s it, I’m putting up a website and this is the first blog post. I’m super interested in the where did the fan belt thing come from, but how did it get to be the first? What’s the catalyst to make it be the first piece?

Vivian (01:01:05):
You have it in front of you. Can you read it to the listeners?

Craig (01:01:10):
I’m pretty quick. I am on your blog. I am … Ooh, I don’t know. Let’s see how fast I am. Yeah, hold on. Scroll to the bottom, hit 30, scroll to the bottom. A new paradigm for systems. Okay, you want me to read the whole thing?

Vivian (01:01:24):
Yeah. Read it out loud. In your podcast voice in your podcasts.

Craig (01:01:28):
I didn’t mean to have a podcast voice, but apparently there’s NPR Craig. All right, this is from January 20, 2014.

Craig (01:01:37):
“To an engineer, a fan belt exists between the crank shaft and the water pump. To a seeker. The fan belt exists between love and our humanity. The soul infinitely flows through and between. Our deepest desire is for peace, joy and love. Dominion over these systems opens the faucet to these states.” You want me to keep reading? Okay. I’ll read the whole thing. There’s more. This is Vivi’s blog, not Craig’s blog.

Craig (01:02:07):
“I am serving a compelling inspiration, a belief that love is what we are, being is our wellspring, and humanness is what we do. We are asleep to the truth of who we are. But the flow of these systems opens us up to our infinite potential and allows us to become fully integrated human beings. At the fundamental roots of all of our suffering is a misalignment of love, a lack of attention on our state of being or a flawed perception of our humaneness. There is no need to discover only to uncover. Take a step into your own heart, pull yourself out and up from your lower self to your greater relationship with the world. We can design our life to flow so that we increase our capacity to love as the greatest universal law. Fulfill the longing of your soul, and live out your own unique pattern. Find what’s right and spend your attention on what’s working.”

Craig (01:03:05):
“Love restores reason. People is all everything is, and can ever be. We are here to love and be loved. Teaching is defined as demonstrating love. All of us are teachers and students. We are teaching other people in every moment who they are. Care, connect and break patterns that don’t have heart. Being is the peaceful see of a cultivated meditative mind and our most valuable formless skill. Everything is unity. Our deepest desires draw us into peace, presence and oneness. Truth is the gap between thoughts, feelings and experiences. Human is an acceptance and compassion of our fundamental biological impulses and reflexes. Mobilize your well-being by recognizing the great oneness of life and the harmony in between our form and the formless. We are all connected to each other and everything around us.”

Vivian (01:04:14):
Wow.

Craig (01:04:15):
Wow. You wrote it, I just read it. I thought it was really, really cool. Really, really good. Really, really insightful. And I went, okay, first of all, fan belt? That’s a wickedly awesome metaphor. So, where did you get the fan belt metaphor? What happened that led to that. Let me call that an insight. It’s one thing to have that whole thing insight, and it’s another to actually type it all out and put it out in the world so that … That was on my list of, where is it? Tell me about the fan belt.

Vivian (01:04:51):
When I heard you read it, two things came out from me. The first is, in January of 2014, the Vivian that wrote that was the intellectual. I think I was attempting to make sense of everything that had just happened, how it had happened. Like, what’s the map, right? What’s the map? But the second thing that came up for me when you read it is it’s like watching a baby grow up. I haven’t revisited that. I don’t think ever. To hear threads of what we’ve already talked about said in that kind of freaked me out a little bit and made me feel good, like I am still on the right path. I am still not on message, because there’s no on message, but the truths are still coming out in whatever ways they need to come out. Honestly, I think that in the back of my mind I’m always looking for a way to relate to my guys, right? Because relationship is important to me.

Vivian (01:06:10):
It was just a car, right? The car was the first thing that came up. When I think of my dad, we have conversations, he’s like, “Vivian, you start the car.” I’m like, “But what happens when it doesn’t start?” “You got to lift the hood.” The car, even though it’s not my metaphor, is a metaphor that I know is important to my people, and that’s who I’m talking to, right? The next generation. It’s a side by side conversation. It’s not a metaphor that I really understand because I know nothing about cars, but I know that without this fan belt-

Craig (01:06:47):
[inaudible 01:06:47].

Vivian (01:06:47):
… nothing else moves. The other thing that you’ll see, and it happens in nature and you’ll see if you visit my website, but I have an infinity symbol, and it is that fan belt with the shell in it. Everything is interconnected. I don’t know that I mentally did that on purpose, but now I recognize that. There’s just this flow in this movement to our experience that connects everything. Does that answer your fan belt question?

Craig (01:07:21):
Yes, it does. I have to say, I was like, oh I skimmed it. Cold reading is not easy, but I had to actually cover you. I was like, I can’t watch you watch me read it. It doesn’t work. I had to move the text. Well, that’s weird. That’s a problem.

Craig (01:07:38):
Yes, it does answer my question because I didn’t have a specific idea of what the answer would be. To me, asking questions or suggesting lines for further conversation are just ways to explore the other person. I don’t usually have an answer in mind. I find that reading other people’s stuff to the author, that kind of wigs me out because I could read it different ways, but I hope the way I read this jives with what you were thinking this piece was. I’m not asking did I do it right because clearly I did, but it’s an interesting challenge to ask.

Craig (01:08:18):
Well, we all know it’s hard to give someone else your writing and say read it. I think it’s easy but it’s really hard to take your writing and stick it up on the interwebs. But then, to say to someone, “Hey, read this out loud back to me,” and then see what you get, I hadn’t even, until about halfway through when my brain meta exploded. I haven’t even thought reading an author’s work. When I read the poem earlier on, that’s safe because you didn’t write the poem and it’s somebody else’s poem. It’s meaningful to you, so I think this is like having me read your words to you.

Vivian (01:08:44):
But I also invited you to do that so that your audience, so that your listeners could have that experience of it and really see-

Craig (01:08:57):
Yeah, as opposed to have them read it.

Vivian (01:08:58):
… the fan belt in context, and to remind me because it was so early on. I used to sit at my-

Craig (01:09:05):
[crosstalk 01:09:05] you ever gone back and …

Vivian (01:09:06):
No. I don’t like remembering that time because I used to sit at my desk and cry and be mad and say, “I can’t do this. You got to go ask somebody else to do it. It’s not for me. I have a good life. I don’t need any attention. I don’t want to be in public view. This is too risky.” I mean, I used to have conversations with myself in that way and I remember crying. Literally crying and being frustrated. Finally, one day, which is why I always am very careful what I ask for because then I get it in a way I didn’t intend, I gave up and I put it away and I said, “Look, I’m too afraid, and with this fear, I’m not going to do it so you’ve got to either fix this or let it go.” I was talking to God, to divine.

Craig (01:09:58):
Higher power, right?

Vivian (01:10:00):
I was like, you’ve got it. You’ve got this thing going on in me and you need to set me free and let me be. Within a couple of months is when I had that car accident and had the near-death experience that really released me from a lot of the “I give a shit” and gave me the freedom to do what I’m doing now. So, ask for what you need but don’t expect to get it in the way that you want.

Craig (01:10:26):
You can’t always get what you want but if you try sometimes you just might find you get what you need.

Vivian (01:10:33):
Exactly. That works

Craig (01:10:35):
Deep wisdom.


Uncovering [1:10:36]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (01:10:36):
(chapter) Where are we on time? About an hour, I think. All right, so here’s the point in the podcast where I have to decide, are we four-fifths of the way or two-thirds of the way. Because if we’re two-thirds of the way, I’m going to start a new train of thought. If we’re four-fifths of the way, we should head for the door. I’ll offer you the leadership baton one last time. Is there anything else that you want to dig into before, I think, we head for the door?

Vivian (01:11:02):
So, I’m going to allow some silence, which is interesting when you’re listening. As you read that, the word that really popped up for me was uncover and the idea of having what you need already. I just want to put a pin on that and emphasize it for your listeners because I really do believe that what you actually need is within your reach. It is within your reach. I am a learner, and a lot of times I can procrastinate and dive into learning as a way of procrastination.

Vivian (01:11:44):
So, what I recognize is those truths that are true to you, they might be different for me and different for someone else. And so, uncover like I uncovered that seashell at the beach. Uncover your experience, like really dive into it because the remembering in this line of work, when you’re diving horizontally from your head to your heart, that’s the map. If folks are looking for a map, is just uncover. Pay attention to learn who you are, what you want and who you’re becoming. That’s, that’s what I want to say.

Craig (01:12:34):
Terrific. That’s becoming my stick.

Vivian (01:12:39):
Horrific is your stick?

Craig (01:12:40):
Terrific. Not horrific with an H.

Vivian (01:12:42):
Oh, terrific.

Craig (01:12:45):
Terrific. Oh my god, no. Do you think I said horrific? No.

Vivian (01:12:47):
I’m kidding.

Craig (01:12:50):
Suddenly, I’m wondering. How many guests have-

Vivian (01:12:51):
Oh my god. Melissa, I think he’s blushing.

Craig (01:12:55):
How many guests have thought I have said-

Vivian (01:12:57):
None. Absolutely none. None. None.

Craig (01:12:58):
… horrific. Oh my god, that’s horrible. That would be horrific. Yes. Terrific. Thank you for … I don’t like to talk bad about anybody who’s not in the room, but sometimes I have guests who don’t have the experience to really like look behind them on an hour and a half, go grab a couple of threads and then bring it together like that, and that’s fine. I think it takes a certain amount of life experience before you’re able to even do that. But, when people like yourself do that, I just want to like hit stop except there’s one more thing I have to ask you. And that’s when I go, terrific. That’s what that is when I say that. That’s maybe the highest compliment I can pay in the podcast. Now, I’m going to think about that.

Vivian (01:13:44):
Wow.

Craig (01:13:45):
So, let me just say-

Vivian (01:13:46):
Thank you.


3 words [1:13:47]

Chapter’s show notes…

Craig (01:13:47):
(chapter, highlight) You’re very welcome. Let me just say … I mean, I want to say, oh my god, thanks by the way for that coaching habit book recommendation that time we were talking with, I can’t think of her name, in the conference with a whole bunch of things I should say thank you for, but let me instead just say, and of course the final question, three words to describe your practice.

Vivian (01:14:07):
I thought that I would say love being human because it is everything, right? Everything flows from it. But when I allowed myself to sort of tap in, what came up was connection. It is my practice, connection. Connecting deeper, making connections, and then creativity. This idea that we’ve been talking about of co-creating. Whether you’re in a room by yourself, like I just talked about crying, or you’re in a space with beautiful humans like you, we are always co-creating. That invitation to open ourselves, to not … Because culture says we have to do things on our own, independently, by ourselves, pick yourself up by the bootstraps kind of stuff. No. We have to create. We co-create.

Vivian (01:15:06):
I guess the third one I didn’t know until I started talking, and that is community. Find your community. If it’s one person, if it’s your pen. I actually like pencils over pens, Craig. But, move something through your body to reflect back on to help you open whatever mindset or whatever perspective you’re looking for. If your community is a piece of paper and a pencil, that’s good. Enough. That is fine. If your community is that phone a friend; someone who can be a loving, gentle kind of a critic, not too critique, but just very gentle. Find your space because we’re not meant to do this alone. Those are my three words.

Craig (01:16:02):
Terrific. Thank you very much, Vivi. It was a sheer delight to finally get a chance to sit down. I can’t wait for COVID to be over so that we can start sitting down again face-to-face with people, but it was a delight to get a chance to sit down and talk. It was everything I hoped it would be.

Vivian (01:16:21):
Thank you. I really appreciate. Again, I was delighted to. I was excited. I really was excited, and I was nervous. I was like my audio, my lighting, my [crosstalk 01:16:31] field.

Craig (01:16:30):
No. You’re all at the top. No, no. These are in recording and video now, people. This one, we spun the call up and Vivi has a camera and I’m like, oh, you have a camera which has a [inaudible 01:16:44], I’m like, okay, I’ll up my game on video since it’s been thrown down anyway. It was a pleasure to talk to you. So much fun. I’ll be seeing you around. Thanks, Vi.

Vivian (01:16:56):
Thanks. (/highlight)

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