078. Tuline Kinaci: Tantra, authenticity, and eye contact

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Transcript

Craig: I don’t know if I have the guts to record beatboxing.

Tuline Kinaci: Was that snare? Hell yeah.

Craig: What?

Tuline Kinaci: That’s the snare!

Craig: Oh, wait!

Tuline Kinaci: You’re hitting the snare, yeah!

Craig: Hello. I’m Craig Constantine. Welcome to the Movers Mindset Podcast, where I interview movement enthusiasts to find out who they are, what they do and why they do it. This is episode 78, Tuline Kinaci, tantra, authenticity and eye contact. Tuline Kinaci openly discusses her experiences with tantra, explaining what it is, what it means to her and how it relates to her goals with LoveCraft Collective. She shares her thoughts on the power of eye contact, radical honesty and interpersonal communication. Tuline delves into her love of climbing and her relationship with movement, sexuality and how the two are connected.

Craig: Hello. I’m Craig Constantine.

Tuline Kinaci: I’m the guest, today.

Craig: Tuline Kinaci is an all-around mover, a dancer, rock climber, traceuse and earned her degree in athletic training. In addition to her movement practices, Tuline is a certified authentic tantra instructor, teaching holistic healing of body, mind, spirit and sex. Tuline considers herself a sex activist and is the founder of LoveCraft, a sexual coaching and empowerment collective. Welcome, Tuline.

Tuline Kinaci: Thanks for having me, Craig.

Craig: Tuline, I’ve done two or three episodes, so far, and I really think that you are probably the person that I have clicked with the most readily. You walk in the door, and I think it took us all, what, two milliseconds to make the first joke, to tell lots of inappropriate jokes, which we didn’t record.

Tuline Kinaci: Inappropriate to whom?

Craig: Anybody else other than the three people in this room. I mean, my wife probably gets all … she’s like, “Oh my God, you told her the joke about the [inaudible 00:02:00] yes, that joke.” Yeah, actually, no, we’re not going there because now we’re recording. There is a joke that I will never tell. Tracy just went, “Oh, thank you.” You know the best part? Behind every good man, there’s a woman rolling her eyes. That’s Tracy. All right, so, I was going to say, you’re probably the person that I have clicked the most, and we even made this joke about, “Maybe we’re separated at birth,” and then I’m looking at you, going, “You know, you kind of look like my dad’s sister, like my aunt Carol,” which is really spooky. Let’s see. I think that’s all I had to say, today. Should we wrap it up, there?

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah, that’s good. I’m Aunt Carol.

Craig: No, no, you’re not my aunt Carol. Here’s a fun story about my aunt Carol: my parents, my dad and his sister, they’re children of the '50s. Well, I should say they were. My dad and my aunt Carol both have passed away, but they were children of the '50s. They got along really well, by which I mean, my dad once figured out that if he pushed the fork on his plate and made that noise, she would go, “Rargh,” and flip out. And, when he realized it by accident, “Squeak,” and she twitched, he went, “Squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak,” and she grabbed the fork out of his hand and stabbed him in the shoulder and left the fork through his shirt in his shoulder, and my dad was like-

Tuline Kinaci: That’s metal.

Craig: Yeah. The adult, my grandmother and grandfather at the table … my grandmother looks across the table at my grandfather and goes, “You going to do something about that?” My dad’s got a fork in his shoulder. My aunt Carol was back to eating, and he goes, “Knock it off.”

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah. “You see what you get?”

Craig: No, just, “Knock it off,” right. This is also the same guy: my dad used to eat the icing off his cake last. He would eat all the cake out, leaving the E icing, or, actually-

Tuline Kinaci: Saving the best for last.

Craig: If you rotate it, it was a W, which was his middle initial. He would save the icing for the end, and then my grandfather would go, “Go see who’s at the door,” so, once, only once, my dad went to the door, and when he came back, no more icing. That was my grandfather.

Tuline Kinaci: That’s brutal.

Craig: Oh, it was awesome. Why am I telling stories of my grandparents. Anyway, got you, again.

Tuline Kinaci: My grandparents, too, great-grandparents. We’re long-lost cousins, Aunt Carol, okay.

Craig: Oh, right.

Tuline Kinaci: Doesn’t that make the [crosstalk 00:04:06]

Craig: I was like, “Oh, you’re going to tell a story about your grandparents; cool,” and then she’s like, “No, we’re separated at birth. I forgot.” Why would anybody listen to this? Okay, so there are … for me, the biggest challenge is always figuring out where to start because there are so many really cool things. Let’s just dive right in and unpack tantra for us because I think people know one of two things: nothing, or they know Sting, because Sting got kind of famous for it.

Tuline Kinaci: Right.

Craig: How horrible is this?

Tuline Kinaci: Men in linen pants.

Craig: Yes.

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah.

Craig: I mean, maybe people need to look up who Sting is. I don’t think Sting’s dead yet, is he?

Melissa: I think he’s still alive

Craig: Yeah, okay, I think he’s still alive. Anyway, so, basically, I know diddlysquat about tantra. Can you just put a pin in the map for me?

Tuline Kinaci: A blurb, yeah. Tantra means, literally, to weave light and sound with form, the light being visualizations of your chakras in your body, sound being chants that you’re making, and then the form being your body, your physical body. That’s, in a nutshell, the way that often looks is meditating. The way a lot of people do that is they’ll meditate and then have sex; they’ll meditate during sex; they’ll meditate on their own without any sex. Yeah, that’s kind of that, which means nothing, right? It’s like a, “Cool, and then what?” which is what got me into having a coach.

Craig: I was going to say, “What did …” the two of us have been laughing so much that we’re sipping herbal tea and trying … actually, it is literally herbal tea. Look at that.

Tuline Kinaci: It is.

Craig: Oh, I steeped mine for way more than four minutes [crosstalk 00:05:35]

Tuline Kinaci: Comforting herbal tea. I’m comforted. This is why I don’t need a pillow, this comfort tea.

Craig: What I was going to say is: what drew you to that? But also, I’m guessing you see it as a vehicle for helping others? I’m just wondering if you can unpack some of how you use it, how it helps you and how you’ve seen it help other people directly.

Tuline Kinaci: Totally. In the intro, we say, "In addition to the movement practice, I practice tantra, as well, and movement is inherently part of everything humans do, for the most part, so there’s movement aspect of tantra, as well. I got into tantra when I was 18 because I wasn’t having what I considered orgasms despite a pretty full sex life from a rather young age, what most people would probably consider a young age. My mom had this book called Urban Tantra by Barbara Carrellas, amazing. I later learned she wrote this book during the AIDS crisis and was trying to find ways that were sexy for people to connect that wouldn’t transmit the virus, and it was like, “We don’t have time to hang out on this mountain and get enlightened, but, what’s hot? What’s not, and how do we practice connection using these methods?”

Tuline Kinaci: That was around 18. I read some of the book and then, on and off, had partners that were more or less — mostly less — interested in practicing it with me, and, finally met someone who was like my tantra teacher. We were playing music together and he mentioned his tantra coach. I’m like, “Wait, there’s coaches?” I had just been reading books and trying to find drawings. I’m like, “What is here, there?” Turns out there was a coach, and I met her. She had a coaching program, and I found the website and I started crying. I was like, “This is what I want to do.” I had read this article, I guess a couple years before about how to find your passion, and the article was basically saying, “You know your passion. It’s what you think about all the time. Whether or not you get paid for it …”

Craig: Awesome, I love guests who have biting, “Yeah point at me.”

Tuline Kinaci: Not as a burn, but you love this; that’s why you do it. It’s your thing, and … you’re at the radio. That’s great.

Craig: Keep going. We’ll unpack the radio in a second.

Tuline Kinaci: I was like, "Oh, I want to help people with sex and I want to heal sex. One of my friends when I was really young had made her sexual debut through the form of being raped, and that made me really sad for her because I was having really great sex in high school and really loving it and feeling really empowered in it. We couldn’t share that experience, so I had known then. Then, it kind of kept popping up in all these different ways of, “Oh, now I can have orgasms. Oh, I’m not broken. Oh, how do I show other people that they’re not broken?” The way it looks now is integrated into a life where it’s not just about sex and orgasm. Although, that’s a huge driver because sexuality is a huge component of being a human, but it’s integrated into, “Oh, wow, that sunset is fully embodied for me,” or, “Oh, wow, the way the trees are blowing in the wind is like …”

Craig: Did that just change? So, where we’re sitting, the sun is drifting across from my left, and there’s a tree. The sun, in the last ten minutes, has started to come out of the tree enough that now the room is full of dappled shifting in the breeze, sunshine. Apparently, Seattle isn’t always like this?

Tuline Kinaci: No.

Craig: That’s what everybody’s saying, but I’m like, “This is what it’s like whenever I go anywhere.” Sorry.

Tuline Kinaci: Thinks for bringing the nice weather with you. I appreciate it.

Craig: I’m taking it on Wednesday.

Tuline Kinaci: You actually are. It’s going to start raining on Thursday.

Craig: I was serious.

Tuline Kinaci: Oh, you know.

Craig: That’s what I was saying.

Tuline Kinaci: “I planned this.”

Craig: Mwuahahaha.

Tuline Kinaci: So, that’s the way that’s looked, and it continues to ebb and flow and transform as I imagine it to … that’s the lifework, right?

Craig: Are you doing it as an intentional practice that you were hoping to develop or have already developed into a profession, or do you go around, randomly find people that you connect with and then go, “Oh, by the way, there’s a tool to help you?” Whether you’re doing this as an amateur or you’re doing this professional, do you see it something you would, “No, I really need to train more people to help lots of people?” How-

Tuline Kinaci: The reason why I called LoveCraft Collective LoveCraft Collective is because I have this idea that once I teach or coach or work with somebody, that they’re a part of the collective. Not that, then, they will be able to offer services under the name, but that, if we’re bringing this healing to people, then they’re a part of the mission, the mission.

Craig: Well, yeah, but I think I know what you mean.

Tuline Kinaci: The drive to … yeah, I just want to create more harmony and people that are embodied and loving themselves, and so, I do it for money. That makes me a professional although I feel rather amateur most of the time.

Craig: That’s okay. I have no clue what I’m doing, either. Cue more herbal tea.

Tuline Kinaci: Raise the pinky. “But that’s none of my business.” Can you make an audio meme? Does that transmit?

Craig: Um, I don’t know.

Tuline Kinaci: We’ll find out.

Craig: We’re going to find out.

Tuline Kinaci: Hi, miguel.

Craig: I should make sure we’re done with your train of thought, was why I paused.

Tuline Kinaci: Money, yeah, lovecraftcollective.com … find me. Talk to me. Pay me. I will teach you. And, also, when I meet people, if they’re interested and I’m interested in them, I’m happy to teach them. But, it is money as energy as an exchange of, “This is how I spend my time and this is how you spend your time, and money is the currency for how we spend our time and energy with each other.”

Craig: Just in accounting form. How does it really work? If you imagine a client, is it individuals, or do you say, “Okay, this is what I’m going to teach you, but you got to bring a friend?” or is it-

Tuline Kinaci: Oh, fun, yeah, well, couples are my favorite because they are with a friend and I get to coach them through practices with each other. I also take individuals: male, female, womxn, any gender, trans, vagina owners, penis owners, whatever they call themselves.

Craig: It does seem like, at first, my first reaction is, “Okay, that’s pretty progressive.” But then, I’m thinking, “Well, actually, suppose one was transgendered or one had recently realized that you were trying to live the gender that didn’t fit who you really felt that you were. Where’s the manual for that? How do I make the transition?” being able to go talk to someone, to spend time with someone, to interact with someone, to be sexual with someone who maybe understands, “Oh, here’s the role that you’re missing.” It seems like it’s really not just about sex. It’s about helping them understand who they are or could be?

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah, and just about being embodied like, “Here, sit with this and develop a pleasure practice.” I don’t know if you’re intending this, but I don’t ever claim to know left or right, female or masculine or anything like that. Tantra is about balancing those energies. However they show up for people is how they show up for people, but I just think it’s important to … we call it yoni massage and Lingam massage. I still like the word pussy. Nothing is sacred; everything is sacred.

Craig: Right, there’s something about certain … and, I always wonder, “That doesn’t translate from language to language,” but there are certain words in English that have a visceral energy to them, and that, if the word is overused, then it would lose that. But, being able to trod a word out like that is like, “I really mean to convey this energy to this other person.”

Tuline Kinaci: Totally, yeah. And, vagina means sheath for a sword, which is very male-centric, whereas yoni means sacred space. So, some people are really drawn to that language. I’m a real straight shooter. I love the idea of tantra and buddhism that it stems from and the lineage, the Shangpa Kagyu lineage that authentic tantra taught me from, and I’m into kink and I’m into BDSM, and I enjoy the whole range of — is it phenomenological — what’s actually happening here and now, and our brains doing things. Metabolites are happening. Neurons are firing. You can call it energy. You can call it-

Craig: It’s energy.

Tuline Kinaci: As woo-woo as you like, however you want to go.

Craig: Energy can just be a shorthand for all this stuff we discovered, actually makes it real.

Tuline Kinaci: Right, science.

Craig: The beautiful sun that we enjoyed so much turned into a glaring ball of burning gas.

Tuline Kinaci: Oh, right, so, speaking of-

Craig: Burning gas?

Tuline Kinaci: Yes, Tuline, right? My name is Tuline, and Toluene is a paint thinner. Sometimes people joke and call me kerosene or other things.

Craig: Oh my God, I had completely forgotten about Toluene. My grandfather used to have cans of Toluene. Sorry, we were thinning paint, right.

Tuline Kinaci: Right, so, burning balls of gas, put also a highly pleasurable person to interact with. So, speaking of working with people of all different gender identities, the idea is really to work with people to develop a pleasure practice because our lives are so full of shit, all of us. The human experience is this shitty ball of burning gas and also this beautiful sunset. And so, I like the blueberry analogy. If you’re eating a bowl of blueberries and you’re … they’re next to you and you’re not looking at them, and you’re: blueberries in your mouth, blueberries in your mouth.

Tuline Kinaci: And then, all of a sudden, you pick a roach up and you put it in your mouth. Next time you go to the blueberry bowl, you’re like, “Holy fuck, I don’t know if it’s going to be …” [crosstalk 00:14:32] but there might only be one roach in the whole bowl, but what does your brain go to every time now you think blueberries? It’s terrifying. That’s kind of the way we treat all our negative experiences. The idea of tantra in its purest elevator speech that you asked about, the weaving light and sound with form is to develop this blissful counterbalance.

Craig: Positive outlook rather than focusing on the negative.

Tuline Kinaci: Or at least an amount to balance the scales.

Craig: Right. I’m still stuck on ball of burning gas, but I’m actually stuck on it because I tend to wander in to movieland, and when I saw the Lion King, the first one … there’s a second one, right? When I saw the first Lion King … the definition of old age, by the way, is when they take movies you like and make another version of it.

Tuline Kinaci: We’re all getting old, now, yeah.

Craig: When I saw the first Lion King and they’re sitting in the grass at night looking at the stars … I for the character’s name, but the little baby lion looks up and says, “Every one of the stars that you can see in the sky is the soul of a former lion king,” and the dumb ass warthog goes hope, “Really, I always thought they were balls of burning gas billions of miles away.” I lost my shit in the theater because it was so funny. From the mouths of babes, from the most unexpected places, the truth can be discovered. Now, I’m just like … and, it is really amazing that the ball of burning gas that we orbit and that everything we need actually came to our interview and interjected itself. Another ten seconds, it’s below the ridge line over there and I can put the window shade back up.

Tuline Kinaci: Totally.

Craig: So, I don’t really believe in predetermined that kind of thing, but I do believe in serendipity, which was somebody’s word from a podcast. You know what number?

Melissa: 62. It’s not out, yet.

Craig: Dang it.

Tuline Kinaci: Do you ask us to pick words?

Craig: Yes. We’ll get to that. And, all the listeners just laughed at you because they’re like, "Oh, yes. This is [crosstalk 00:16:14]

Tuline Kinaci: Oh, I just outed myself. I haven’t listened to your podcast.

Craig: But that’s good. Outing yourself is really important and I think you did it in a really healthy way. You totally owned it.

Tuline Kinaci: On your fuckups. Yeah, we were talking about that. I could run away screaming, but here I am, yeah.

Craig: Actually, the door’s locked. You just don’t know that, yet. The little side joke, there, which all the listeners know … if anybody’s listening, I don’t understand why. But, what you just discovered for the first time is that there’s this running gag where Melissa knows all of the numbers for the episodes. I can picture and remember all the spaces in the stories, but if I ask her a random question: “Hedge” Hall?

Melissa: 22.

Craig: It’s 22. She knows the numbers for every guest off the top of her head.

Tuline Kinaci: Cool. I have magic powers, too, but that’s great.

Craig: Oh, what are your magic powers?

Tuline Kinaci: They’re actually kind of similar: tend to be memory recall, and I’m really good with dates and-

Craig: The fruit or the-

Tuline Kinaci: Oh, no.

Craig: I know, I got it. I’m sorry.

Tuline Kinaci: I do love dates, bacon-wrapped and almond-butter-filled. If you haven’t tried that, I highly suggest it, if you eat swine … by birthdays, and I think it’s a way for me to chronologically celebrate things. I’ll, for some reason, remember the first day I went on a date with somebody or had a phone call, first time I talked to that person because people and relationships are important to me.

Craig: I would agree. I think there’s something about being able to remember specific details when there’s an emotion attached to it, good, bad, what it is, so there’s probably much more we could talk about tantra. We could talk about that, but there are other things, random … ooh, do you want to do random fun things? What is it about … okay, so you say you have a good memory, but what’s your superpower?

Tuline Kinaci: You’d have to ask my friends.

Craig: I don’t have access to your friends.

Tuline Kinaci: What is my superpower?

Craig: You could tell me what your friends would say your superpower is.

Tuline Kinaci: I guess if I were to list the thing that I like the most about myself: I bring a sort of comfort to the room as being rather authentically expressed and unafraid to share things about myself that I hope inspires other people to do the same thing, and I consider that a societal superpower.

Craig: Holy crap, please, do that everywhere.

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah.

Craig: What’s the most interesting story that comes to mind when I ask you about eye contact?

Tuline Kinaci: I was at what I jokingly and lovingly call Tantra Camp, which was our first retreat while I was in the authentic tantra certification program, and I was meditating with my teacher. We were practicing this thing called microcosmic orbit, and I get lost. Some people call it the void, but it just felt like swirling dark colors making eye contact with this person kind of in this forever place of being and being okay both simultaneously of like, everything is perfect and everything is right and I am right here and you are there, but also, where are we?

Craig: Yeah, where are we? I know where I am related to you, but-

Tuline Kinaci: What’s even happening? And, beyond the story, my theory around it is that human beings experience themselves through experiencing other relativity. Thanks, Einstein, or maybe Einstein’s late wife … unclear who actually … women rolling their eyes.

Craig: Very astute, yes, very much. Did I say that out loud in this podcast?

Melissa: [inaudible 00:19:39]

Tuline Kinaci: Astute?

Craig: No, no: behind every good man is a woman rolling her eyes. Did I actually say that in the recording? Okay. It’s hard to remember.

Tuline Kinaci: Now you did.

Craig: Now I did, right. It’s hard to remember.

Tuline Kinaci: And so, there’s something kind of magical that happens when you … we’re making eye contact right now, and it’s kind of silly, but if we allowed ourselves to continue to make eye contact-

Craig: Well, yeah, there’s definitely an awkward zone here, people. We’re now at about six or seven seconds and it’s like, “I really need to look away, now.”

Tuline Kinaci: Right, right, right, and like, why is that?

Craig: Well, because eye contact is extremely intimate, like the old … euphemism is the wrong word. The metaphor of the eyes being windows to the soul-

Tuline Kinaci: Totally.

Craig: And, there’s also … sorry, are you done? I don’t want to cut your story off.

Tuline Kinaci: Well, I want to know why you think so, so yeah, go ahead.

Craig: I think that … first of all, humans are really good at detecting eye contact. My story, I have two of them, real quick: 60 miles an hour on the highway. I’m in the passing lane, so I’m close to the median divider. I passed a car going the other way, 60 at least, so 120 miles an hour relative speed. I looked across the guardrail, and a woman driving the car looked at me, and it was absolutely clear in a split second that we were making eye contact, and it was the most freak thing I have ever experienced, because it was like I felt like I should have went and had a cup of coffee with that person although I couldn’t tell you what color her hair was. I’m absolutely certain it was a woman and it was like, “Fshew,” so it was one of those moments where I realized people are really good-

Tuline Kinaci: Your story’s cooler than mine. I’m like, “That’s a cool story.”

Craig: No, I think your story … I’ve got an even cooler one. I don’t think it’s very cool, but here’s a cooler one. In my martial arts days, there’s a kind of fall where you wind up doing a flip. They call it a break fall, doing a flip fall, but it can be done from different levels. Some people do it really low. I had done it at shoulder height, so it requires, basically, jumping up to save your shoulder. So, from shoulder height, rotate and fall. There’s a, “Badum, splat,” before you hit the floor, just a short split second.

Craig: And, at that point, I had been doing the martial art long enough that I could actually pay attention to the whole process and the torque being released from your arm and the comfort returning, and I did one of these on a beautiful summer day. And, as I did it and flipped through the air, I looked out the front window of the school and there was someone sitting in a car because a traffic light had stopped traffic in front of the school, so this is 15, 20 feet to the front, glass, out the front, across the sidewalk with people walking on it and the other lane, and this person looked at me and we made eye contact and, whack, I hit the floor. It was just like this … I actually remember smiling and they looked at me and kind of smiled back, so I feel like there was enough … what I’m getting at is-

Tuline Kinaci: The recognition.

Craig: Not only could we see each other, but recognize that it was not just another human, but two humans. I think their first instinct would have been like, “Oh my God, that guy’s about to die,” but then they see me notice them and smile. They were like, “What?” and away they drove, and I jumped up and continued what I was doing. So, these two moments there are like two of … I could always tell stories about eye contact with my wife because I’ve known her for 28 years, but that’s how the … I can tell that one, too.

Craig: So, the first time we were ever introduced by name, we were both in college. There’s this thing: Melissa’s keeping notes and she’s smiling and waiting to type. We were at a dinner where we had a visiting professor, and one of our professors introduced the two of us by name, and it’s: the first eye contact was just like, electrifying. It’s all about eye contact. Well, in the beginning, it’s all about eye contact.

Tuline Kinaci: It continues to be all about eye contact in my experience. Although, I haven’t been married for 28 years ever, so-

Craig: Well, I haven’t been married for 28 years. We’ve been together for 28 years. But anyways-

Tuline Kinaci: Semantics, right?

Craig: That’s what I always say. Anyway, off on a tangent, Craig. Eye contact: so, I think that because we are so good at detecting eye contact, and compared to other senses, we’re not nearly as sensitive. Even just eye contact is a thing. So, when you spot that eye contact, it’s inherently electrifying in your deep brain. So, I don’t know, that’s just, how could you ignore a sense that was that hooked up?

Tuline Kinaci: Totally.

Craig: I find I struggle with — and, this just weirds me out — which eye to look at. We’re sitting close enough that if I look at-

Tuline Kinaci: You switch.

Craig: Yeah, it’s like, which? And then, it becomes this … I don’t know. Do I stare at one or the other?

Tuline Kinaci: So, in tantra, the left eye is receiving and the right eye is giving because the masculine and feminine sides. So, feminine is receiving.

Craig: From which point of view?

Tuline Kinaci: Right.

Craig: Is that this eye or that eye?

Tuline Kinaci: Right, so that’s the fun one. If you want to be … you can think about it as from your eyes.

Craig: Don’t make me overthink.

Tuline Kinaci: Don’t overthink it.

Craig: Because you’re about to make it awkward.

Tuline Kinaci: Because it hasn’t been already?

Craig: I was pretending it wasn’t awkward, but so much for that sham.

Tuline Kinaci: You can kind of choose, sometimes. It’s something fun to play with, and you don’t have to go, obviously, back and forth. I understand-

Craig: I like you because you’re messing with me. Yeah, so you can just stare at the third eye.

Tuline Kinaci: Right, but then you’re not actually looking at them, right?

Craig: Yes, exactly. So, if I go like that, you’re just like, “Knock it off and look at me,” as I’m staring between your eyes.

Tuline Kinaci: Why are you cross eyed? That actually reminds me of a different story about eye contact. This weekend, I was at the Folsom Street Fair down in San Francisco, and there’s a lot of leather, sex and kinky activities and people doing them in public and people watching. There was a moment I was partaking in a scene with someone and I looked up and made eye contact with somebody else in the crowd and immediately lightened the mood. It was like I was in this kind of intense space and feeling somewhat humiliated, which is fine, because that’s what we go for, sometimes. That’s okay.

Tuline Kinaci: And, they looked at me and they kind of giggled. And then, all of a sudden, it was this goofy not-so-serious thing that was happening, anymore. They saw through what I might have been experiencing as shame and it became: when I’m being seen in something that I think is shameful and this person isn’t turning away but is celebrating it and enjoying it, it allows me to then fall into more of a, “Oh, this is okay.” And, I think that being seen by people creates a lot of that for-

Craig: Yeah, being seen. I was just talking to someone who was talking about … and, now I’m trying to figure out who it was, but I can’t remember … about radical honesty, so what would happen if … I don’t remember who that was. What would happen if, when someone asked you for money on the street, if instead of saying, “Sorry, and moving on,” if you said, “I’m choosing not to give you money.” What would you have to do to be able to be that radically honest to them. That might be the right thing to say to them. They might be like, “Well, thank you for being honest.” I don’t know. I’ve never tried that.

Craig: But, what you’re saying about being seen is maybe … now, I’m just talking through my hat. Maybe part of what is uncomfortable about the interaction with somebody who asks you something which would really be a small task for you to do is you literally don’t want to see them. They see you because … and you’re like, “I don’t want to be seen by you, so I’m going to turn my head and say I’m sorry.” I’m not suggesting everybody give every dollar they have to every person who asks because … wow, my head is so full of stories.

Tuline Kinaci: But, sometimes, it’s just about making eye contact with them and saying, “Hey, I see that you’re living on the street. You’re not totally invisible to me. I don’t think giving you money will solve the problem, but also, I see you as a human.”

Craig: Right [inaudible 00:26:35] question. I, when I was in college, had a guy ask me for 20 bucks to buy a bus ticket, and I think I was just too young and naïve to realize that people might ask for 20 bucks to go buy meth or something. He asked me for 20 bucks. I actually didn’t have 20 bucks in cash, but what I had was a credit card, and I said to the guy, actually honest and open, I said, “I don’t have 20 bucks.” Who would ask a college kid? I said, “I don’t have 20 bucks, but the bus station is only three blocks away. I’ll walk over and buy you a ticket,” and he went, “You got me,” and walked away. It was like, “Oh my God, you were going to steal 20 bucks from me.” I was so naïve, and it was one of those situations where I deployed radical honesty without any clue that was even a thing. I was just like, “Oh, I’ll give you 20 bucks,” and he was just like, “You.”

Tuline Kinaci: That’s why kids say the darnedest things, what you were saying about the Lion King earlier. That’s along those lines, right, full circle.

Craig: Yeah, the old, “Mommy, did that woman swallow a watermelon?” and everybody thinks it’s funny and it’s embarrassing, but we all pretend that women aren’t pregnant when … “Look, they swallowed a watermelon.” This is just a natural part of life.

Tuline Kinaci: Right, or, “We’re trying to have a kid,” instead of saying, “We’re fucking all the time.”

Craig: But, it’s actually become common enough now that people can actually be like, “This is a problem.” This has gone from being fun to being like, “This is a chore. There’s marks on the calendar, and I’m working late tonight.” I have friends for whom that was an issue, and it seemed to be that it was actually a biological issue related to … I don’t want to say parasitic [inaudible 00:28:01] to make it sound really bad, but they wound up having to on a retreat and they totally changed what they were eating and it was like, “You must take a vacation and three weeks unplugged.” This was a really expensive thing, but it worked for them. It was just an interesting … I know them well enough that when I heard the one side of the story, I was like, “Oh, wow, that’s really an issue.” They had literally tried everything, and it was actually becoming an issue for their relationship that they weren’t able to achieve this thing that they wanted to achieve.

Tuline Kinaci: Right. I don’t know those people, obviously, but stress-

Craig: That would be really scary.

Tuline Kinaci: That’s one of the other things inside of tantra, inside of movement, inside of … right, why do we go move our bodies? Why do we sit with our bodies? Why do we intentionally breathe? And, so much of it comes down to stress relief, relief from — I’m looking around the room — all this shit.

Craig: Hey! But, I know what you mean.

Tuline Kinaci: I mean, this is nice. This is great.

Craig: This is nice. Have a bite of chocolate while I look at the time. We haven’t really touched your movement background. I’m not sure if you think, at this point, that would rise to a level of even being interesting, but if you do, we could talk about maybe-

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah, that’d be great.

Craig: How you got into parkour and what your thoughts are on that.

Tuline Kinaci: Parkour is a shorter story than my movement practice in general. I had been interested in parkour for a while and was really scared to go into PKV. Then, by the time I looked it up, I saw that the gym had closed, unfortunately. And then, I am a climber. I’ve been climbing for … God, that’s a hard thing to say, I’m a climber.

Craig: Oh my God, I fancy myself a climber. I’ve done a bunch of trad.

Tuline Kinaci: I love trad. Trad is my heart.

Craig: I’m the follow, of course. I’m not the lead. I climb with guys who climb.

Tuline Kinaci: It’s scary.

Craig: Well, going second’s not scary, but the lead … the guy that I climb with most often, he can climb like, 12. I fall off at … my red is like, 5.9". Six has never been there. He falls off 12, so the two of us are team invincible, but he does tell stories of like, "I went to set a .1 and I thought, 'Eh, Craig’s coming after me. Let’s [crosstalk 00:30:00]

Tuline Kinaci: Something heavier.

Craig: Put a .2 or .3 in there and-

Tuline Kinaci: That’s great.

Craig: He looks and he’s like, “When I started climbing, I never used to worry about rocks breaking,” but I know when you’re following stuff, Craig, I’m going to think about-

Tuline Kinaci: Where do you climb?

Craig: I don’t climb … I haven’t climbed outdoor … last time I climbed was, I think, two years ago. I was at the Red River Gorge [crosstalk 00:30:19]

Tuline Kinaci: There’s mostly sport down there, or there’s trad, too?

Craig: Yeah, well there’s trad, too. Sorry, off we go on a tangent.

Tuline Kinaci: Here we go.

Craig: Yeah, let’s just geek out on climbing. So, that guy’s name is Mike. Mike has a climbing van, and he was working in the midwest. He actually had a job climbing cellphone towers installing gear. That was his job.

Tuline Kinaci: What’s his last name?

Craig: Oh, God, if you know Mike Boyer, I’m going to freak out.

Tuline Kinaci: I don’t know Mike Boyer, no. The climbing world is real small, especially in trad.

Craig: He’s actually an alpinist, is where his heart lies.

Tuline Kinaci: Even smaller.

Craig: Yes, even smaller. So, him and I are great together because if I can climb it, he can lead it. His only concern is making sure there’s enough gear to-

Tuline Kinaci: Not kill you, right.

Craig: Not kill me. He is so light compared to me that when I first went out to Boulder to climb with him … so, Mike was doing the grungy climber thing in a van. Facebook, I see him. “Hey, Mike. I haven’t talked to you in years. What are you up to?” He’s like, “Oh, I’m in Boulder, climbing. You should come climb, sometime,” and unlike everybody else. I said, “Really, when?” and he’s like, “Seriously?” I’m like, “Yeah,” so I went to a local climbing gym every other day and climbed.

Tuline Kinaci: To train.

Craig: To train.

Tuline Kinaci: Perfect.

Craig: I climbed every other day. Sometimes, there’d be three routes. I’d climb three routes and my fingers are coming apart; go home. Come back two days later. Guys are like, “Seriously?” I’m like, “Yep.” I wasn’t kidding around because the only way I knew I was going to live was if I got some strength and start building the tendons.

Tuline Kinaci: The strength to weight ratio is-

Craig: Yeah, I’m still not sufficient for me, and my strength to weight ratio is negative. No, it’d be like .007. So, I go out and we did a whole bunch of sport climbing to start. Should we drop breadcrumbs like: sport climbing is when you go out to a rock face outdoors, and some people have installed the wheelchair access ramp, which looks like holes.

Tuline Kinaci: That’s mean for sport climbers.

Craig: I’m sorry, but-

Tuline Kinaci: They’re hangers on bolts.

Craig: They drill holes in the rock, put a bolt in with special epoxy, and then there’s a little bracket that hangs off there, so, as you climb up the route, you take a little thing; you clip it in, so instead of having to … the other version is what’s called trad, which is traditional. This is going to turn into a climbing podcast. You can speak at any time. Traditional climbing is when the climbers work as a team. The lead climber places safety equipment, little cams or nuts or shims or all kinds of different thingies into the rocks without marking or damaging the rocks: no chipping and drilling.

Craig: They put something in the rocks, and then they add the safety rope hung through there, and then they climb onward. So, if they fall, they fall all the distance to the last piece of gear, and then they continue falling at least that far because they brought ten feet of slack, so they’re going ten more feet. Then, they fall all the rope stretch, which is 25% of something. Its’ like 30%.

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah, 20, 30.

Craig: So, then, you’re on a rubber band. So, if you are 50 meters in the air, you’re getting another 12 or 10 meters of stretch. Now, you have been free falling for 30 feet, and then the rope begins to catch you. You want it to stretch like that because you don’t want to get snapped. But, Mike is so light. Sorry, sport climbing: sport climbing, you can follow the bolts up the route, placing safety gear. It’s pretty easy, leaves no trace. And, at the top, there’ll be a special kind of anchor that you can repel off of. Mike and I did a whole bunch of that to get our team feng shui going and our communication stuff.

Tuline Kinaci: Totally, and your trust.

Craig: Yes, big-time. Well, ironically, we had been doing martial arts for like, seven years, so we had been beating the shit out of each other.

Tuline Kinaci: Oh, cool, so you already trust each other.

Craig: Yeah, it was already like we did the tantra first, so we were already cool. He tells stories of, “Yeah, you’ve got my by the head and throw me from shoulder height to the floor, so I was already used to life being in your hands.” So, trad is you have to build the play system as you go. It’s super fun as the second. When you’re doing sport, it’s like, “Yeah, I’m going to climb up there and open all these safety clips.” Boring.

Tuline Kinaci: Totally.

Craig: But, as trad, the second climber has to pick up everything the first climber left behind.

Tuline Kinaci: Cleaning.

Craig: And, the first climber has to choose the route. Yes, there’s usually, “Go this way. Go that way. Go this way.” But, the first climber is in just an open space with what they call the sharp end of the rope, which means there ain’t nothing above you to catch you. The safety is below. [inaudible 00:34:06] “Can we get to the fun stuff?” Okay, so that’s sport versus trad. I did a whole bunch of indoor. All you people who are climbing indoors, the bolting ring is actually a more true form of climbing, because that’s what the lead climber does. You just climb, your hands, and you’re not doing anything else. Why was I unpacking sport versus trad?

Tuline Kinaci: Because you’re not sure if your listeners know.

Craig: Oh, right, so, but why? Why were we talking about-

Melissa: Mike.

Craig: Yeah, no, it was about Mike, but-

Tuline Kinaci: I just asked where you climb, where you were climbing, told you I was a climber.

Craig: Oh, right, so, I went out to visit Mike in Boulder with brandy new … I showed up with a blade of ice that was unscratched. Mike took one look at that and … it turns out that climb-

Tuline Kinaci: “Ya’ gumby.”

Craig: “Ya’ gumby.” Climbers, it’s a whole world. You’ll be strolling to the climb, and everybody looks at your crotch. What they’re actually looking at is the blade of ice. They want to see-

Tuline Kinaci: How shiny your shit is.

Craig: How shiny or scratched up your stuff is.

Tuline Kinaci: Totally. “Do you know what you’re doing? Have you been in it for long?” It’s like parkour in that realm of-

Craig: Are your pants frayed open in the back from dragging or what do you wear, slims or baggy?

Tuline Kinaci: How shiny are those tennis shoes, and what kind of shoes are they and whose pants are you wearing, you know, scotchies or gym shorts or-

Craig: Oh, what brand? I thought you meant am I wearing somebody else’s pants. I was like, “What?”

Tuline Kinaci: “Can I borrow your pants for this?”

Craig: So, I climbed a bunch in Boulder with Mike. That’s a boring story. Is that the whole story? I don’t know.

Tuline Kinaci: I don’t know. You got excited about climbing. We were talking about climbing.

Craig: Yeah, I got really excited about climbing. Mike and I have been trying to go climbing again in the Red. Oh, right, you asked if the red was a bunch of … that’s how I-

Tuline Kinaci: Trad or sport.

Craig: Trad or sport, and I said it’s trad. There’s not as much sport, but if you’re willing to walk into the woods, there is some amazing trad.

Tuline Kinaci: And it’s all sandstone, no?

Craig: Yeah, some of it’s sandstone. Some of it’s layer cake, so some of it’s granite on the bottom. We found granite with moss on it like, “Here’s a route in the book,” and I’m like, “Geez, nobody’s climbed this in 30 years,” gorgeous stuff.

Tuline Kinaci: Cool, that’s awesome.

Craig: But, Mike is light enough that, on a sport route when he’s just hanging clips, I can pull him up the rock face. He’ll slip off and fall. He’s trying to work a red route, which means it’s right at his climbing ability. Red means you’re going to fall off of it. He’s climbing on the red, and as the lead climber, you really got to trust your catch. I can … you shouldn’t do this. It’s a little sketchy, but I can easily catch him if he hasn’t fallen too far with one hand on the rope above me.

Craig: So, a lot of times, I’ll work the … I’m making a hand gesture nobody can see. There’s one hand that you’re pulling down; you’re taking slack out of the system, and that’s the break so you can hold it. But, when Mike falls, I can actually reach up with one hand, jump, grab, pull another arm full of slack after having jumped up in the air, yanked that all through with my other hand, so I’m actually-

Tuline Kinaci: So he’s not falling as far.

Craig: I’m falling and stretching the rope. The first time Mike slipped off the rocks and I did that to him, he knows how far he should fall and he fell half the distance. He was like, “Wait.”

Tuline Kinaci: “What the fuck?”

Craig: Well, no, he was like, “Dude, that was awesome!” And then, he realized he’s like … now he’s fallen off the route because, normally, wherever you’re climbing, you fall and you’re a little off to the side, so you can’t get back on the route. He has to … this would be a chore. I can see him reaching, and all he needs is like six inches to just get ahold of something, so I go, “You want me to pull you up?” and he goes, “Can you do that?” I’m like, “Yeah, hold on one second.”

Tuline Kinaci: And the weight differential.

Craig: I jump up and put my feet on the wall and just basically repel my ass to the ground, and he goes up like six inches, and he’s like, “That’s awesome! Can I have another one?” I’m like, I know I have worked the slack. So, we get along really well. One time, I fell off of a route. This is not the same story I told you. I fell off of a route and I fell on a .1. If you look at me, Craig should not be falling on a .1. They come in sizes. The real pieces of gear are like one, two, two-and-a-half, three, four-and-a-half, blah, blah, blah. And then, they make these, “I don’t know why you’re sticking them in. It’s a fraction, but it might be worth something.”

Craig: Mike stuck a .1 at a crux of a route, and as I’m trying to get around the crux to get the barn door, I was just like, “I’m going to fall.” Maybe the third rule of climbing is, when you know you’re falling, just own it and not get hurt, and I yelled, “Falling!” right as he said, “Don’t fall on the .1!” So, as I fell and I hear him yell, I’m like, “Oh, good, so, now I’m falling at the point where …” and the danger is not so much-

Tuline Kinaci: Is a pendulum fall?

Craig: Yeah, it was a pendulum swing around a rock, and there’s a whole bunch of dangers in falling, which would be: you could lose your footing and swing and bash into something. We’re wearing helmets, but you could still break an arm or something, or get upside down and dumped. That one wasn’t too bad. It was just a scuffy thing. And then, actually, around the other side … I should have just jumped and swung around because it was way easier on the other side. The crux was getting around this outcrop, so there was that one. Yeah, so, I turned this into a climbing podcast. You and I were talking about real stuff, and now we’re talking about climbing stuff. What’s your favorite climbing route that you’ve ever done?

Tuline Kinaci: Well, I climb at Index, Washington, which, don’t publish that because nobody go there; it’s horrible. It sucks. Don’t go. Index sucks, now.

Craig: Why does it suck?

Tuline Kinaci: So that people don’t go, mostly.

Craig: Oh, okay. So, basically, gear blows out. It’s all sandstone.

Tuline Kinaci: It’s just choss. It’s horrible. The rock falls apart in your hands. This summer, I went out to Washington Pass, which isn’t far from here, a bunch of alpine climbing with my sweetie. We did the South Arete of South Early Winters Spire. It’s a 5.6. It’s super mellow. We pitched out the first couple pitches and then just soloed the rest, and it was such a good time, just movement over rocks. I don’t tell people I solo often because they usually say-

Craig: People freak out.

Tuline Kinaci: Like Alex [Honald 00:39:34]. Yeah, “Climbing without a rope?”

Craig: Like that?

Tuline Kinaci: Yes, free solo.

Craig: Exactly like that?

Tuline Kinaci: Not at all like that. It’s mostly scrambling over pretty chill rocks, but you don’t have to deal with the rope and all the gear. I brought up climbing because I was talking about my movement practice. I’ve been climbing for four-and-a-half years. I said I was a climber and then I got sheepish because, like it’s hard for me to say I’m a singer, I also still have imposter syndrome about climbing.

Craig: Oh my God, you clearly are a better climber than me. Do you lead or do you follow?

Tuline Kinaci: I do both, mostly follow. This year was more about leading, which-

Craig: Because it’s a whole different skillset. How did you go about learning … nobody else cares, but I care. How did you go about learning how to set pro?

Tuline Kinaci: When I first started taking out climbing-

Craig: Sorry, it’s called protection, how to set protection.

Tuline Kinaci: Protection, pro, yeah.

Craig: Set pro in the rocks.

Tuline Kinaci: When I first got taken out climbing, I didn’t realize that the people I was climbing with were very, very strong climbers because, as a total gumby, right, you just don’t know what’s going on. They’re telling you to do these things and you’re like, “This is normal,” because you don’t know any better. So, within my first year of climbing, I was climbing trad with folks, mostly following. I was climbing at an ability level that I could do on top rope that I still have a hard time leading. So, this year, I was putting the ego aside and really just wanting to do the thing to know that I could do the thing, so a lot of 5.8 and 5.7 and 5.9 and a lot of crying and being scared and allowing that to happen. Inside of dating somebody, I was surprised how many emotions came out in ways that didn’t when I climb with other people because it’s a whole nother level of being vulnerable and intimate with somebody.

Craig: I’ve noticed a lot of people climb as couples. I find people who are clearly a couple in addition to being out climbing, and I always wonder whether that makes it better or worse, but it probably makes it better.

Tuline Kinaci: Well, I think it depends. I’ve seen couples have absolute shitshows, you know? The man will lead-

Craig: “Stop throwing rocks at me!”

Tuline Kinaci: And he’ll be yelling, and she’ll be like, “I can’t do it,” and he’s like, “Just try again,” and it’s just horrible-

Craig: “Just be better.”

Tuline Kinaci: “Just reach higher. Be taller,” and you’re like, "Just shut the fuck up and go home [crosstalk 00:41:26] or the other way around and it’s the woman who’s strong and men have ego trips about that. Obviously, not all men, not all people, but I’ve also seen great couples go out and do amazing things together because they trust each other and they move fast and they have years of experience.

Craig: And they know each other.

Tuline Kinaci: And they know each other and they work each other’s strengths and weaknesses, and that’s really, really fun.

Craig: That was one thing that Mike … hey, Mike, you’re in a podcast … one thing that Mike mentioned after we had done a bunch of routes in trad. He’s like, “Yeah, it’s actually really challenging to figure out how to set protection for you.” And some of this stuff, my mother would just freak out, but some of this stuff is like I don’t have enough curse words to curse for the duration of the fall, here. This is like you could parachute off this thing. It’d be a pretty quick jump and throw, but it’s a long way down. You don’t ever even consider falling. You assume that things are going to go right." Generally, you should never fall, but-

Tuline Kinaci: That’s old school. The gear’s better now. My friend … when I first started climbing, I was really scared following a route and wouldn’t let go of the rock to fall on the rope, and he said-

Craig: Oh, yeah, Mike made me do that. He’s like, “Okay, dude, fall.” He’d lead and he sets up a belay point and he’s got the friction device hooked into the belay and he’s just like, “Take a dive, now,” and I’m just like, “No.” He’s like, “Fall.”

Tuline Kinaci: So, the saying was, “The sex used to be safer. The gear wasn’t.” Now, it’s the other way around.

Craig: That’s a good way to put that, yeah.

Tuline Kinaci: It was apt. I let go and the rope caught me, but it’s a whole nother head game. And bouldering — you mentioned bouldering earlier — I feel like is the most similar to parkour in the realm of the fear about falling off of stuff and the zero margin for error at a certain point, at a certain height.

Craig: Yeah, I have only ever boulder in a gym, and that’s a different [crosstalk 00:43:18]

Tuline Kinaci: It’s a totally different story. I don’t like bouldering outside so much because of that, and it’s been a heady thing for me to develop. It hasn’t been something that I’ve been that interested in, partially because the go game, and I see some people that are really good at capturing that mind space, doing these big descents. It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful, and I have done my best this year, too, as being on the sharp end of just trying to enjoy the movement, just wanting to enjoy moving on rocks. I mentioned kink, earlier. I think rock climbing fits in some of the same realms of masochism of, "I’m going to jam my hand in this crack and I’m going to crank on it and it’s going to fuckin’ hurt, and then I’m going to cram a crank on and stick my other hand in this crack, and then I’m going to shove my ankle in there and twist on it and-

Craig: The bones, yeah.

Tuline Kinaci: Stand up and just … I’ve done a lot of climbing shirtless and naked because I love the way my body feels on the rocks and the movements of being outdoors and-

Craig: Rocks are so tactile, yeah. There’s definitely a … I’m not going to say it’s erotic, but I guess, okay, if you want to go there.

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah, it could be. But, feeling rock on skin, it’s like being out in nature. I know there’s this whole group of people called ecosexuals. They really get off on being out in nature. I wouldn’t identify as an ecosexual, I think, mostly because I have a hard time with labels, a lot of labels, but yeah, just getting your … I think men have an easier time with being shirtless in public in our world in general.

Craig: Just because of how it’s socially constructed?

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah, but being wedged between rocks or climbing trees and feeling … I think it’s another level of tantra, another part of tantra of-

Craig: There’s definitely something about squeezing up a chimney. Chimneys are if you’re climbing between two vertical … imagine trying to go from the floor of your closet up to the ceiling of your closet with no shelves in there, and one way is to just push against both sides. The further you go, the scarier it gets, because if you slip, then you’re in a meat grinder all the way to the bottom.

Tuline Kinaci: Ya’ taco.

Craig: Exactly. Oh, that’s horrible. I haven’t heard that in a while. One point, we were climbing. It might have been like 5.6. It could have been 5.5. It was basically the approach to the climb, and I’m styling it out like, “This is the best climb ever.” Mike looks down at me and he goes, “What are you doing on that chimney? There’s hand holes all around the side,” and I’m working up a chimney with a backpack. I was having a moment. It was great.

Tuline Kinaci: Because it’s fun. The movement is fun. When I was a kid, I climbed doorways. We had a pull-up bar in the doorway. I climbed the doorway to get up to the pull-up bar and do some stupid shit like let go and try to get my chin to catch me. I don’t know. I learned the hard way. I didn’t do that again.

Craig: Ouch.

Tuline Kinaci: But, you’re always exploring and playing. I think climbing and parkour plays into-

Craig: There’s something about [inaudible 00:46:05] a wild, dead, beat horse. There’s something about … you were talking about hand jams and foot jams. A hand jam is … how do I explain it? Imagine a crack in the rock. I don’t care which way the crack goes. Depending on how much of your hand you can get in, it’s either a finger jam if only fingers fit, or it’s a hand jam if you can get in past your knuckle. And then, the trick is, you stick your hand in there like, “I hope nothing’s in here,” because you can’t see. It’s above your head. “I hope nobody’s home.” You put your hand in as far as it will go, and then you basically make these Vulcan nerve pinch shapes with your hand and you try to make a jam. So, if you bend your fingers, now they don’t fit to come out.

Tuline Kinaci: You’re caming your hand in the crack.

Craig: Can you hang your whole body on your middle finger? You’re going to find out. Or, if you can … I have big, meaty hands, and Mike will at me, “Just use your hand like an ax. Just chop it in there and then make a fist and you’ll be fine.” But, it’s much easier to jam your feet in, because you’re pushing, so you can point your toe in and stick it in there like a wood wedge. It’s one thing to climb up rock when you’re grabbing and you’re on the outside, and there’s something — I’m not quire sure what it is — about when you jam your hands or your feet into the rock, it’s like … you stick something in there, and it’s like, “Whoa.” It really is-

Tuline Kinaci: It’s like a thunder jacket.

Craig: A thunder jacket?

Tuline Kinaci: You know when dogs get scared and the-

Craig: Oh, right, right, right, right.

Tuline Kinaci: Or lightning coat, right? There’s this … it’s like the comfort pillow. There’s something about being surrounded some people really enjoy.

Craig: You can just tell. You put your hand there. You’re like, “Nope, nope.” Everything matters. Are your fingers horizontal? Are your fingers on an angle? Which way did you rotate your hand?

Tuline Kinaci: Right, thumb down, thumb up.

Craig: Yeah, and you’re like, “How many fingers?” Push, push, lock it in. All of a sudden, you go, “Yes.”

Tuline Kinaci: That’s locker.

Craig: And then, you make the hand. I’m not in as great shape as I was, but you can literally hang off it. If you stick one hand in there and you can have the strength to hang from a fist, you can … I’m making these gestures in the air. If you lock your hand in there and hang, you’re one with the rock. And, unless you … sometimes the pain starts because there’s no tape on your hand, but if you do it right, it doesn’t even hurt, but you might have to move your hand a millimeter like, “Ouch, ooh, oh, yes.”

Tuline Kinaci: Right, and it depends on the rock. Sandstone is softer than granite and all that kind of stuff.

Craig: At the red … sorry, go ahead.

Tuline Kinaci: I like how excited you are, though.

Craig: No, I’m not.

Tuline Kinaci: There’s an aspect, right, like pain-free. And, sometimes, the pain is good, and sometimes-

Craig: Will people you climb with yell at you, “If it sucks, climb faster!”

Tuline Kinaci: No, but I’m going to yell that next time I’m climbing.

Craig: That’s what Mike always says to me.

Tuline Kinaci: That’s fantastic.

Craig: Because I get stuck and I’ll be like, “I am.”

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah, “This sucks.”

Craig: He’s like, “Can you see a nickel?” Generally speaking, if you find the edge of a nickel on a piece of rock, you should be able to stand up on that. You can put your shoe on it and stand up on that nickel. So, he’ll be like, “Do you see a nickel?” He doesn’t mean a piece of change, but I’m like, “Yeah.” He’s like, “Well, stand on it. I’m like-”

Tuline Kinaci: Fuck, you, that’s [crosstalk 00:48:59]

Craig: I wasn’t sure that was the proper response. That’s the one I use all the time. “Come up here and stand on it.” “Well, if you move faster-”

Tuline Kinaci: So, I got into parkour because I met Caitlin Pontrella at Seattle Bouldering Project. That’s the answer to that question.

Craig: Okay, honestly, you’re really good at pulling us all the way back to there.

Tuline Kinaci: Thank you.

Craig: Terrific.

Tuline Kinaci: We were hanging out at the bar in West Wall Café, and a friend was like, "You should meet this person. She’s really cool. We became friends, and then I met Brandee Laird. What was really cool, I think, about developing those friendships, is that I didn’t know who they were in the parkour community, and they said, “Come out and play with us.”

Craig: You said okay.

Tuline Kinaci: I was like, “Okay.”

Craig: Gumby!

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah, total gumby, right? Totally. Just like my climbing experience, I started climbing with these people that were developing at Index and climbing really fucking hard, like 5.12+ climbers, and I just didn’t realize because how would I know? It wasn’t until … I think it was AOR maybe by the time that Brandi was teaching in rendezvous or something, and I saw some internet stuff and I was like, “Holy shit, this person is a very respected, well-renowned, world-renowned coach, and she’s my friend and I know her as a friend before coach.” I think if I had stepped into PKB before that, our relationships would have been different, which is just an aside about friendships and how they develop and what you know about people or what you think you know about people and the way we treat folks that are at certain levels of pedestal or no pedestal or-

Craig: Yeah, keep at arms’ length or not.

Tuline Kinaci: Are you a human? How vulnerable can I be with you, or do I look up to you in this way for this thing? That was really cool, seeing that side of people that I had become to know as friends and not as coaches, but as peers. Now, I do parkour, and I see the world very, very differently in terms of what I can play on or how I can … I think parkour changed my life in the greatest way. I have two nieces and a nephew. My niece last year had bacterial meningitis. I know she almost died at three weeks old … five weeks old? Three or five weeks old.

Tuline Kinaci: And, I went down after she got out of the hospital. My sister had to go back for some followup appointment, and my sister left me outside of the hospital in the parking lot with a four-and-a-half-year-old and a three-year-old and I was like, “Oh, fuck.” We were talking about kids earlier and I was like, “Shit, I don’t know what to do with these. How am I supposed to entertain the little people in a fucking parking lot?”

Craig: I think if you stand on them, then they don’t run away.

Tuline Kinaci: And, that would have been my answer, before, but I had just been learning about parkour, and there were rails and there were benches, and I was like, “Okay, it’s superhero practice time. Do y’all want to be ninjas or what?” I was able to Auntie Tuline my way into entertaining them for almost as long as it took for my sister to come back outside, almost an hour.

Craig: And now, of course, she hates you because her kids want to know where they can go learn parkour. Way to go, Tuline.

Tuline Kinaci: Oh, no. And, I think that’s some of the magic of parkour and movement and changing the mindset.

Craig: As much as I would love to go back to climbing, that was a really fun interchange, so I’m just going to remember that as like, “Remember that time I got to talk to Tuline.” So long.

Tuline Kinaci: We can still bring up climbing. It’s huge in my movement practice. I climb weekly.

Craig: Now, you make me feel like a total blob.

Tuline Kinaci: You can climb, again, I think.

Craig: Yeah, there’s nothing that’s fundamentally broken that says I can’t climb other than the fact that I’m overweight. Anyway, okay, non sequitur. Since you are, I’m going to say, attuned to interpersonal communication, physically and emotionally and eye contact, what are your meta thoughts on having conversations like this with headphones on?

Tuline Kinaci: Is your mouth open? I can’t see it because the mic’s in the way.

Craig: Yes, it was like the way Grover would go [inaudible 00:52:48]

Tuline Kinaci: I really enjoy it, and I’ve been, every now and then, looking at Melissa and wondering to what degree I should be looking at Melissa because she doesn’t have a microphone, and it’s like there’s this kind of … we’re having a tea party, and she’s watching and hanging out.

Craig: Odd person out.

Tuline Kinaci: Our exhibitionist conversation, here. That’s really why you do it, right?

Craig: Whoa, wait a second. I never thought about that.

Tuline Kinaci: You’re an audio exhibitionist.

Craig: It’s actually a thing because I think that’s a thing.

Tuline Kinaci: When people get a microphone and they can’t stop talking … and, what do people love to do? We talk about ourselves. I mean, we’re human, right? You make that face like, “Oh, really, is it me?” But, yeah, hell yeah, it’s you.

Craig: You cut me deep, Shrek.

Tuline Kinaci: “That’s a nice rock!”

Craig: “Ogres have … why can’t ogres be more like parfait? Everybody loves parfait. Nobody likes onions.”

Tuline Kinaci: That’s about as far as I’ve gotten.

Craig: With the train of thought?

Tuline Kinaci: With the train of thought, yeah, the meta thoughts on headphones.

Craig: I’ve gotten a little further than that because … sometimes, I talk to guests about this after the fact. How do we unpack this so it is in any possible, possibly, in some way, related or meaningful or useful or meaningful to people who are listening? Actually, most people would probably be listening with headphones on, so we’re both in your head.

Tuline Kinaci: We’re in your head, now.

Craig: We’re in your head, now. [inaudible 00:54:13] You are way better at that than I am.

Tuline Kinaci: They call me Tuline and I’m keeping the name. 5’2", but I’m deep in the game. You staring at me, trying not to feel the shame. I see you Craig Constantine, hittin it-

Craig: Sorry. That was awesome.

Tuline Kinaci: Thank you. I freestyle from time to time. I’m far too sober right now for-

Craig: I was going to say, that was way better than you just screwing around. That was clearly something that you do. I mean, I was just screwing around. I can make one noise, and I won’t do it because you’re drinking tea.

Tuline Kinaci: Thank you. That would have been three for three.

Craig: I know. I just was like, “I won’t, because then I’m just showing off.” But, what I did before was tapping on the base of the-

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah, thumb boxing, thumb beating.

Craig: There’s a, I want to say, hand fetish. There’s probably a name for being fixated on tactile-

Tuline Kinaci: Tactile, totally.

Craig: And I definitely have that. I’m always like-

Tuline Kinaci: ADD, I think. Is that-

Craig: I always like to say I turn my ADD into art do you deplacement, my attention deficit disorder into art do you deplacement.

Tuline Kinaci: Totally.

Craig: I was undiagnosed as a kid because I’m old enough to be before they invented the cool thing where they probably had the, what is it, the DSM thing. We were probably on DSM negative 2 at that time. Oh, speakers, sorry, headphones.

Tuline Kinaci: I have a thing about that. Okay, yeah.

Craig: Go ahead, go. Go, go, go.

Tuline Kinaci: Well, just coping mechanisms. We talk about the DSM and that it’s disorder, disorder, disorder, disorder. It’s a potentially useful discourse, I suppose, for talking about a wide array of symptoms that people maybe share, like all the people that have, air quote, “ADD,” share this kind of, “This happens in my brain when I’m doing this X thing,” but it’s potentially just a coping mechanism you developed when you were young to survive in the world. My personal experience, the coping mechanisms that I’ve developed that people maybe have names for in the DSM is more about discovering the awareness of and not being a victim to. So, when I turn disorder into coping mechanism, I am able then to have agency and power around it. So, you were talking about your hand thing. You turned your ADD into ADD, and that’s your power. That’s your art, yeah.

Craig: Maybe. I don’t know if I would call it art, but I guess it’s technically art.

Tuline Kinaci: I mean, it’s French. Is it French? It’s French.

Craig: Je ne sais quoi. I don’t know.

Tuline Kinaci: Meta thoughts on headphones, did you have more? Is that where you going a little further, there?

Craig: Yes, that was where. But, I literally love when guests derail me and just turn left because I actually get sick of hearing myself lead, so I try to rein it in. But, I had said that people are listening with headphones on, and-

Tuline Kinaci: Oh, right, we’re in your head.

Craig: And that turned into … oh, don’t.

Tuline Kinaci: Sorry, I did it, again.

Craig: Because if you’d done it, I’d have been like … I’d have been right back to it, just beatbox for an hour-and-a-half because the cool part is nobody can tell me what to do around here. But, people who are listening … why would anybody be listening? People who are listening with headphones, you get a certain kind of experience. I’m hoping if you’re listening on headphones, you’ve noticed that podcasts in general suck you in, and it’s because, I think that your ears work … because they’re connected to an older part of your brain, so when you hear something, it draws your attention, and when you hear people talk to you and they’re in your ears as opposed to hearing it across the room, it’s like you can’t help but be drawn to that. So, I think part of my the reason why podcasting works so sell is that humans are really fixated, are really interested in audio. There’s one experience, people who are listening. And then, there’s another experience for people who are listening to each other and making awkward eye contact again.

Tuline Kinaci: It’s only awkward if you make it that way.

Craig: I think you would kill me in a staring contest every time. Please, I’m just going to close my eyes, now. I’m not challenging you to a staring contest. But, there’s something about … if you go to a jam or a cocktail party or something and have a conversation, have a first date … which is interesting. One of the things I’m good at doing is picking tables that you and I are sitting far enough apart so this doesn’t turn into a first date.

Craig: If you try to interview somebody … you know how this works; if we each moved in a foot, this would really be intimate. Where, as it is, we can easily touch across the table, so we’re two arms’ lengths apart. This is cool. We can screw around and it’s like nothing is serious, but if we were a foot closer, it’d be like, “Okay, this is a little serious. We’re getting close to being in each other’s personal spaces.” I think the head … I really am coming to the point. I know you’re not looking at me but people are going, “Fast-forward, fast-forward, fast-forward.” If we were any closer together, it would be awkward. So, the headphones bring us closer together. You are literally in my head and I’m literally-

Tuline Kinaci: Literally mac and cheese, literally.

Craig: That’s a really good British accent. I can’t do any good accents.

Tuline Kinaci: I think that’s the word, though. That’s the one, right? It’s literally.

Craig: Literally?

Tuline Kinaci: They say it differently. I don’t know. I’m not … I think they do. They?

Craig: I think I would hurt myself.

Tuline Kinaci: Like, those people, gosh.

Craig: Those people, Oh my God. Do you ever-

Tuline Kinaci: It’s the same as when you’re in a car or you’re listening to music or you’re jamming out. Your windows are up. You’re in your own little spaceship, and then you pull up next to someone else and they’re jamming out in their car and you’re like, “Yeah, I see you. I see you dancing and singing.”

Craig: I see you jamming. Busted, right?

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah, totally. Or, turn around, blow a kiss and keep doing it.

Craig: Oh my God, I remember that one, except I don’t own a car, anymore.

Tuline Kinaci: You could blow kisses to people in cars.

Craig: That would be weird.

Tuline Kinaci: It might be weird.

Craig: Just stand in my front yard.

Tuline Kinaci: Different societal expectations for us, for sure.

Craig: Stand in my front yard in my pajamas.

Tuline Kinaci: That’s fantastic.

Craig: I actually have a really good … oh, man, there are so many stories. I have a really good Miss America wave.

Tuline Kinaci: Smile and wave, yeah, totally.

Craig: I can smile and wave. I once inadvertently wandered through … this is another true story that I don’t think everybody has heard. I once inadvertently wandered through a Miss America pageant warmup, wandered through 50 women. They were all in sweatpant.

Tuline Kinaci: In their full-on … oh, okay, alright.

Craig: No, they were in sweatpants and stuff. This was like a practice. It was like, “From the top, one, two, three,” and I go through the middle of the room. People were like, “What the heck?” It was a long complicated story of: I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Actually, I didn’t go through the middle of the room; I went by a big open doorway in an area where nobody was supposed to be, so 50 women looked at me and I’m just like, “Whoa, this is awkward both ways. I’m out of here.” I was pushing a big card full of computer gear trying to find some place. When I eventually came out of security, they were like, “How the hell did you get …” I’m on the wrong side of the thing.

Tuline Kinaci: Like, “You should be asking yourselves that question.”

Craig: That was the thing. I’m like, “Good thing there’s not a bomb in this push-buggy,” but I was smart enough not to say that. I’d still be there, right?

Tuline Kinaci: Don’t be that guy. Totally. I need to pee.

Craig: And, on that note, we’re taking a break.

Craig: Everybody better, now?

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah, we’re here.

Craig: Okay. We were talking about … we did climbing, and then we were talking about parkour. And then, we were talking about audio. I think we’re kind of done with the headphones thing. I just think it’s an interesting … you don’t ever do anything in your practice, any kind of practice, tantra or BDSM or all this stuff … do you ever do anything with headphones? Is it ever like, “Here, I’m going to make you listen to Johann Sebastian Bach while beating the crap out of you?” Is that something?

Tuline Kinaci: No, but I’m going to try it, now.

Craig: You know where that’s from?

Tuline Kinaci: No.

Craig: That’s from Clockwork Orange.

Tuline Kinaci: Is it?

Craig: They have his eyes propped open and they’re making him watch Johann Sebastian Bach while drugging him up to change his behavior.

Tuline Kinaci: I think it’s similar to the way I feel bed is sacred space, being in bed with somebody else. I guess I call it pillow talk, and it sounds so cliché to me, but having this space with someone else like I wake up in the morning and, “Let’s share some coffee together,” and then it’s kind of talk and giggle and be silly and, “Please pet my head and we’ll feel really close in this way that, once we’re out of bed, we don’t feel this way anymore because it’s time to go back to real life and I have to go to work, now, and you’re going to go do this thing.” I think that creating space … headphones create a space.

Craig: Yeah, a new space. It actually takes away a lot of space and creates.

Tuline Kinaci: Right, totally arranges a bubble in the same way that maybe a bed arranges a bubble, or, if you’re meditating with somebody and you’re making this eye contact with them, you’re arranging this bubble, right, of, “It’s just me and you and we’re right here and the outside world can get kind of squirrely and you’re not focused on it.”

Craig: You win.

Tuline Kinaci: Is this awkward for you?

Craig: No, it wasn’t awkward, but it’s just like the flight or fight response was kicking in of, “You are way overpowering me.”

Tuline Kinaci: That’s really interesting. Oh, I’m sorry.

Craig: Nobody else [crosstalk 01:02:48] no, I don’t mind, but the whole time she was talking, it was stared, locked eye contact, and then I’m just like, “You win.” I look down.

Tuline Kinaci: I do try to make, what’s the word, a distinction between staring and eye contact. Staring would be over here, like in gym, “I’m going to get you.”

Craig: But see, that looks so innocent. This doesn’t work on a podcast, but that form of staring just doesn’t seem to weird me out because I’m just like, “Yeah, you’re obviously …” the thing is when you … if I go and I really stare at you or if I stare at you, it’s just so obviously fake that it doesn’t-

Tuline Kinaci: It doesn’t create the vulnerable sense.

Craig: Right.

Tuline Kinaci: Totally. There’s the four-minute thing. It was a questionnaire. It was 36 Questions to Make Anyone Fall In Love. I don’t know if you saw that. It was going around the internet for a while. [crosstalk 01:03:35] I did the questions with somebody. We dated for three months.

Craig: It’s total BS.

Tuline Kinaci: Sure. I mean, they were great and I love them, but it wasn’t going to last. Then, there’s a four minutes of eye contact thing you’re supposed to do at the end of it, and I think, fuck all the questions. Maybe it’s just the eye contact.

Craig: Just four minutes of eye contact, right.

Tuline Kinaci: We were doing it via video chat, but, maybe it’s just about sitting down with someone and being seen. I find eye contact, to go back to eye contact, as … you know you’re talking to somebody and they’re kind of looking all around and they won’t look at you or settle down and they seem highly anxious and you’re just like, “Whoa, can you chill and be here with me? It’s okay. I’m safe.” And, a lot of that, I know, comes from trauma, so that’s not to dis anybody who has a hard time making eye contact with people, because I can also understand that neuroatypical people that are at autism and stuff, eye contact can actually feel physically painful to the degree that eye contact creates connection for neurotypical people.

Tuline Kinaci: It can create disconnection for atypical people. So, that’s something, when I first started practicing tantra, came across this article written by a woman who was autistic, and I was very, very grateful for finding it because I was like, “Eye contact,” right, just fresh out the gate. I’m like [crosstalk 01:04:52] eye contact is a thing." And then, you can’t just stare … that’s why you’re like, “You’re staring at me.” I’m like, “Wait, no, I’m actually seeing you and trying to be here with you,” and I try to make a distinction, there because I have played from the ego place before of, “I’m big and strong and, yeah, you’re going to look away from me,” and that’s not a place of compassion and connection. So, having played in the realm of darkness, as you called it earlier, I think it’s an important distinction to make.

Craig: The other thing that’s changed in this room, now … what else is different?

Tuline Kinaci: It’s darker.

Craig: Yeah, it’s basically gotten dark because we’ve been here … we’ve been using this room for various things all day. There’s only one light on, and it’s the one over the table, so now it’s like we’re-

Tuline Kinaci: We’re in the spotlight.

Craig: I was going to say a seance or whatever. The thing that’s most lit … I would assume from your point of view, too, is my face and your face, so it’s not even like there are other things in the room that are as easy to see as your eyes and your face. It’s just like, “Okay.”

Tuline Kinaci: Right, it’s changed. But, yeah, we’re now in the bubble.

Craig: Yeah, there’s literally a visual bubble with one [inaudible 01:05:55]

Tuline Kinaci: Two miguel, two.

Craig: Well, yeah, he [crosstalk 01:06:02] but there’s a creeper in the room.

Tuline Kinaci: Right. He’s in the corner. We don’t pay attention to him, yeah, right?

Craig: Maybe this is like every hundred episodes or so we have to do one these blow-off-steam. I know this is weird.

Tuline Kinaci: That’s good. Are we blowing off steam, right now?

Craig: I may be. So, I came from Art of Retreat before this and I did something like 24 45-minute interviews in two days.

Tuline Kinaci: Whoa.

Craig: Whoa, that may have been a mistake. And, part of it was because there were so many people that were at a retreat, and we were capturing these little … they call them spark talks, and the idea was to sit down with each of the presenters and go over the material and try to find something to take away to spark a conversation or movement, and Melissa lined them up. We were just knocking them out. I had them numbered like, “Whoa, how are you doing?” “Well, I’m really doing good. How are you, #17?” It was numbers for everybody. “I’m not a number!”

Tuline Kinaci: Right.

Craig: So, yeah, there’s a lot of those that I did in a row. It was good because it’s really … it forces me to hone my skills to be able to read them as fast as I can and figure out whether they want to talk about it. And, there’s different kinds of interviews. Maybe this would be fun to unpack. So, this interview that we’re doing, sometimes I just say I let the guest off-leash and I try to keep up. I don’t mean in a derogatory way, although maybe you would really enjoy that.

Craig: But, when we let the guest off-leash and let them run, then it’s up to me to just try and not mess up what you’re doing, and it can be really fun, but it can also go really weird like if the guest is expecting a certain role from me and then I’m just like, “Let’s go have fun,” and they’re like, “I thought you were going to ask questions.” Or, if I ask a question, it’s open-ended. They’re like, “I thought you were going to give me some context.”

Tuline Kinaci: Okay, well, off-leash, I was at Folsom this past weekend. I grew up in San Francisco and left when I was 17. Growing up with such an open, I mean, really gay environment, topless people in parades waving at me from a young age and seeing my teachers in elementary school were gay and married couples and it was just part of life. It wasn’t something I thought so much about until I moved to Montana where people were meeting their first gay person in college.

Tuline Kinaci: So, coming back to Folsom as an adult, my first time going to the fair as an adult and participating and being … it was almost like a homecoming where, having grown up in such an open place, I took it for granted, and then have been out in the world in different places and kind of forgot. So, coming back and being able to experience this whole thing that feels like it’s been an inherent part of me for so long that yet maybe hasn’t been expressed to its full capacity as I had appreciate was really, really cool.

Tuline Kinaci: And, what I find really interesting about … so I performed at something called Twisted Windows, which is put on by a lovely person named Shay Tiziano, and it is a subversive performance art on Friday night. It’s all night long. There’s bondage performances and, wow, a plethora. There’s someone on trapeze and just all kinds of cool shit, people self-suspending and puppy play. That’s where people dress up like pups and play with stuffed animals and bark at each other. It’s fucking the cutest thing. It’s just great. Yeah, yeah. Two thoughts: the performance we did, I was holding something heavy over my head for half an hour while taking on a lot of impact, whips, heavy floggers, bites, this whole realm of sexual-

Craig: Things that would make you want to use your arms to defend yourself, right?

Tuline Kinaci: Right, and, well, by choice as a sensual experience. I am a masochist. I think that climbing plays into that very well. And, holding something heavy overhead for half an hour straight is really intense.

Craig: Just that.

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah, right, just like, can you imagine holding 20 pounds over your head for half an hour? I was just pouring sweat. So, meditation and tantra bring on this space of presence and can get you really high, especially and more so, generally, in my experience, with somebody else. And, what I’ve found really cool about kink and why I’m open to talking about it here, I have this idea that tantra is supposed to be spiritual and it’s serious, and it’s the right way to do things. Then, having some more experience in kink and realizing that there’s this level of connection and negotiation and all these things that need to be present, trust, in order to let somebody, to ask somebody to please hit you-

Craig: Yeah, play this role.

Tuline Kinaci: Yeah. And then, they’re trusting you that you really want that and that they’re not hurting you, and that they’re doing something that might be seen from the outside as awful is a beautiful expression of something that I had been experiencing inside of tantra. And then, I brought up Barbara Carrellas, earlier. She talks about that inside of Urban Tantra. I think some people call it dark tantra where they interplay the two things, and the integration of that just into life.

Tuline Kinaci: It’s not just like, “I’m going to sit here and meditate and breathe.” It’s like, “I’m going to hold this heavy weight over my head and meditate and breathe and get into this space while getting hit,” and that can also bring me to this level of heightened … but, there’s something about the movement. That’s why I want to talk about it. I’m watching this person move around me. I’m unable to move. What happens when I shift my weight to this side or I get hit here versus there, and how can I breathe and move the energy to become something that feels really good instead of, “Ow, that was sharp.” Or, you’re trying to knock me off balance. How do I reel it in to be present? It was just fascinating. That’s the off-leash thing. The second thought I had was … oh, you said something. There were two thoughts about it. It’ll come back to me.

Craig: I think we’ve covered a lot of useful things that will help people … I don’t want to say broaden their horizon, but expose them to new ideas and maybe give them something to think about that may be behavior that they might think of … I was going to say atypical, but behavior that they might think of as atypical.

Tuline Kinaci: Or taboo or subversive [crosstalk 01:12:29] or transgressive.

Craig: Transgressive is a great word, maybe something that they think of as transgressive, they might reassess why they think it’s transgressive. “Why do I have an opinion, or, why do I think it’s true that this is wrong or that the things that are happening here are things that I shouldn’t look at,” and they leave. I’m like, “Okay, that in itself is good,” but I’m wondering if there’s something that you think we can … and, this is funny because I’m staring off to the right above you because I’m trying to make my … for some reason, do you ever notice when you have to come-

Tuline Kinaci: Oh, yeah.

Craig: There are directions to look when you’re trying to think of something. I have now become this whack job who’s not looking at you because I’m going-

Tuline Kinaci: Thinking.

Craig: I need to find the idea.

Tuline Kinaci: Eye contact is distracting, yeah. Go find the idea up there.

Craig: What I was thinking … I’ll just close my eyes. What I was thinking was there’s something that we can, I’m going to say challenge, something that we can challenge people to think about that might help them find places or ideas or spaces where they have an unknown bias. I have known biases. Everybody does, and the reason to think of … think of something that you think if you saw in a public street, you’d be like, “Whoa, that should not be happening.” That’s an easy one to find. But, I’m wondering if there are places where people might have biases that they aren’t aware of, and if there’s any thoughts you have on how to help people find those. I’m really reaching here for like an, “Ooh.” What if we went meta meta?

Tuline Kinaci: Meta meta, that’s metal.

Craig: I’ll just point out that you’re no longer looking at me.

Tuline Kinaci: No, I am! I’m thinking. I think often down to the right, often, when I don’t know what to say. When I do know what to say, I generally think up, I think. Unclear. Someone watching me more often would have to tell me. Unknown biases is like the, “I don’t know that I don’t know a thing,” and I don’t-

Craig: Right?

Tuline Kinaci: That’s a hard one to dig up. I think so much of … here’s a great one. So, when you watch somebody … how many times have you practiced something, or you’re telling someone about what you do, and they say, “I could never do that.”

Craig: All the time.

Tuline Kinaci: All the time. Climbing, “I could never do that.” “Oh, what do you do? I could never do that.” For some people, I don’t want to say even, because all movement is valuable. Sometimes, it’s a small jump and something that people that I look up to, I would think, “Oh, this is nothing and cake for them. It’s big for me.” And then, somebody else is like, “Wow, that’s amazing. I could never do that.” And, I think, “Just try it. Just go try it.” You asked what my superpower was, earlier, and I mentioned being inspiring and wanting people to go past what they think is possible or break down barriers, and that’s why I consider myself a sex activist because I’m into the idea that sexuality is a part of everything we do, including movement. And, I find it a really interesting line that we choose to draw. We say, “Sex is this,” and it’s an incredibly transgressive idea to say, “Sex is everything,” right, because then it’s like, “Oh, I’m hanging out with my friends, and I love them. Is that sexual? Oh my God, I’m gay.” Whatever that brings up for people, it’s a huge world of triggers. I’m eating this apple or this peach and it’s so good, and it’s dripping down my face.

Craig: Sensual, right?

Tuline Kinaci: It’s so sensual, and sensual is a bad word, right? All of a sudden, sensual is like, “Don’t.”

Craig: It describes that it has senses involved.

Tuline Kinaci: Exactly. And then, so, what degree do we sexualize that? I don’t have answers for any of that. I just find it fascinating to ruminate on, and I think that the answer, to a degree, is to just go try it. So, BDSM or kink is a lot harder to watch than it is to partake in. To watch somebody get hit for half an hour is a lot harder than being the person getting hit for half an hour because something else is happening. And, I think in the same way that watching … I don’t know a ton of parkour athletes, but Bryan Riggins is a friend of mine, and we’ve had some conversations about performance and mindset.

Tuline Kinaci: Then, I’ll watch some of his stuff and I’m just like, “Holy shit, dude, how do you do that? How do you keep it together? I could never do that.” I find myself in the same space, and so it’s like, “Okay, where do I start? How do I break that down and how do I know that I feel a certain way about it until I go try and do it?” and I think that’s the best way to find your unknown biases, is to try things that interest you or try things that don’t interest you because maybe they will or maybe the thing you thought you were going to be into isn’t the thing you’re into, and that’s how you meet people that expose you to new things that will then get you to discover you had a bias.

Craig: By the way, I think that’s a really good answer to what I asked you. I served you a, “Good luck with this,” and lobbed you a really weird question, and I think that there’s insight there in what you said, so thank you for that, looking up and to the right, again. I’m going to say, “What’s …” I feel bad when I make guests wait for my stupid, lumbering train of thought. The problem is my train of thought is really fast and I run through maybe thousands of things. And, what I’m actually doing is I’m going, “No, that’s too trivial to ask you. That’s too trivial to ask you. That’s a blunt tool.”

Craig: Sometimes, certain people that I interview, I feel like I’m Clarice from Silence of the Lambs and I’m trying to interview Hannibal Lecter with the blunt instrument of the stack of the paper and I’m [inaudible 01:17:52] and the guest looks at me and goes, “You’re going to dissect me with this blunt instrument?” So, not that I often use blunt instruments on the guests, but … I just realized what I was setting up, but I just realized that, at this point in our conversation, there’s a … now everything is sexual. There’s a ratchet involved that we’ve been ratcheting up the conversation to a point where it’s like, “Well, we only have a limited amount of time to do this on mic,” and I’m like, "Well, I probably have one or two more questions, so what should I ask? I just wasted 30 seconds. What I wanted to say first was: what’s a story that you can tell me about somebody that you admire?

Tuline Kinaci: Wow. Whoa. My first thought is my mom, and then I’m like, “What story is there to tell?” I could even relate one to movement. My grandfather passed away in February, and my grandma and him lived together. They were married, basically married for 50 years. They lived in Edmonds, which isn’t that far north of where we are right now. And, I live here in Washington, Seattle area, and I work here. My mom came up from San Francisco, where she lives, to handle stuff. Some of her siblings came out, but we’re the East Coast people … or, the West Coast. West Coast, best coast. I can’t say that to you, can I? We’re the West Coast people, and so there’s all these expectations about, “Who should be taking care of things?” and all the kind of shit that happens, and you realize that we-

Craig: Emotional, right?

Tuline Kinaci: Totally. We put the fun in dysfunction, and I had-

Craig: I say that all the time.

Tuline Kinaci: Do you really?

Craig: Oh, yeah. We put the fun back into dysfunction. You’ve never seen a more neurotic gang.

Tuline Kinaci: I didn’t realize … this is an aside; I didn’t realize how dysfunctional our family was until that happened. And then, the coping mechanisms my grandfather had developed and his neuroses is evident because you’re going through all their shit because they no longer can. My mom came in and, at first, wanted all this help because it’s hard to be the person to take things on. But then, at a certain point, when you know that you’re the one that’s going to be doing it and you seem to have the way figured out and it’s just too much anxiety for anyone else to help out, then she just stepped into this role. We moved my grandma down to Sacramento. She’s in assisted living, now. She broke her ankle earlier this week.

Craig: Shoo.

Tuline Kinaci: I know. There’s just shit on shit, but my mom has been … she’s the one. She stepped into the role and has put her life … she’s not serving on my grandma hand and foot, and she’s going up to check on her at the expense of her own movement practice. That really was like when my mom was in Edmonds emptying out the condo and going through 50 years of photos, all this stuff that life puts on people, I’m like, “Ma, I got to go to the gym. I’m not helping you with this, I got to go climb or I got to go work out.” I got to go move or I go crazy because I need … my movement practice is whatever. I’ll go dance at the gym or I’ll go twerk. Whatever I need to shake the shit out of my body, and she didn’t have that ability. She had a timeline. She had to get the thing done, and I admire the shit out of her for it for putting her mother’s wellbeing in her hands and choosing to be that rock for her. I think it’s incredibly admirable. Love you, mom.

Craig: Thank you for sharing.

Tuline Kinaci: Oh, you commented on everything is sexual, now, and I had a bit about that. Do you remember saying that?

Craig: I do remember saying that.

Tuline Kinaci: Cool, I couldn’t tell from your eyes.

Craig: I’m wondering whether I should be regretting saying that, but go ahead.

Tuline Kinaci: I don’t think so. I’m poly. Do you know what that means?

Craig: No.

Tuline Kinaci: I date more than one person at a time.

Craig: Oh, poly. I thought-

Tuline Kinaci: Polyamorous, sorry.

Craig: Sorry, P-O-L, I thought you meant P-A-U-L.

Tuline Kinaci: Hi, my name’s Poly. Oh, Pauly. Call me Pauly, honey.

Craig: That, I was like huh? I get the P-O-L-Y. I just misread what you said, my bad. I really have bad … I really do have bad hearing.

Tuline Kinaci: That’s not a come-on. There’s a lot of ideas I have that I think, to a degree, are dangerous because ideas can be really dangerous. I think if we were all just more open about everything being sexual all the time. I think that, in schools, we need a consent and boundaries class of how to set … and, I think that’s part of what parkour and MMA teaches people. I used to box, right, of tapping out, or, “This is my limit.” I think if we equipped people with the ability to say, “You know what, it’s this point I’m going to remove myself from the room,” or, “Please don’t say that to me, again,” or, “I really don’t appreciate that kind of language in X, Y context.”

Tuline Kinaci: I realize it’s a big, complicated world and it’s not as easy to just say, “Yeah, give people the tools and they’ll use them,” but, I think for the most part if we’re able to just talk about it and say … yeah, I fall in love with my friends. This is personal. I fall in love with my friends all the time, and, being poly, it’s kind of problematic. You’re like, “Wait, I could actually date all of you. I mean, you don’t necessarily want to date me, but like, that’s part of my personal way of living.”

Craig: [inaudible 01:23:17] right?

Tuline Kinaci: Because love is so big, and when I’ve had conversations with people that are like, “Hey, I’m attracted to you. I don’t necessarily want to date you. I just kind of need to get this off my chest because it would make hanging out with you easier for me to just share with you this.” It’s like intimacy and vulnerability of, “I have this thing happening that every time I see you, these chemicals are going on in my body,” and if I don’t address it as a disorder and it’s just like, “This is what arises in this context, and now let’s deal with it,” I think if we were all equipped with a little bit more of that, however we would learn that — I’m not entirely sure how we would spread that to the people — I think that could go a long, long way. I think that’s interesting.

Craig: I would agree that that’s interesting. So, I don’t know if you’ve listened to the podcast at all, but there’s this thing that I always ask at the end.

Tuline Kinaci: Is it about a word?

Craig: It’s about three words.

Tuline Kinaci: Three words.

Craig: So, I’ll just throw it at you and see with it. It’s, and, of course, the final question: three words to describe your practice.

Tuline Kinaci: Inconsistent yet persistent.

Craig: That’s a terrific answer. Well, thank you very much, Tuline. It has been … to say it’s been a pleasure is not quite the right … it’s been pleasurable and fun and energizing and exhausting. I mean, exhausting is good.

Tuline Kinaci: Thanks.

Craig: It’s been a wild ride, a fun ride, so, a very different chance to get to talk to someone who challenges me and pushes me in different ways during an interview. Thank you for that. It’s been a pleasure.

Tuline Kinaci: Thanks so much for having me.

Craig: You’re very welcome.

Tuline Kinaci: It’s been a great time.

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