054. Gogoly Yao: Journey, Esprit Concrete, and challenge

Podcast episode


Craig: Welcome to the Movers Mindset podcast where I interview movement enthusiasts to find out who they are, what they do, and why they do it. In this episode, Gogoly Yao explains his background and the journey that led him to where he is now. He discusses how he first encountered parkour and his work on Esprit Concrete with Kasturi Torchia. Yao shares his current challenges and what he is working on, and discusses his training with Esprit Concrete team member Georgia Munroe.

Craig: Hello. I’m Craig Constantine.

Gogoly: Hi, Craig.

Craig: Gogoly Yao is a longtime coach and athlete and the co-founder of Esprit Concrete. Originally from France, Yao trained Taekwondo for many years before moving to London where he began his l’art du deplacement training. Known for his infectious energy and love of community, Yao is an experienced coach and has run workshops, seminars, and camps both nationally and internationally.

Craig: [French 00:01:00]

Gogoly: [French 00:01:01], Craig. Thanks for having me.

Craig: [French 00:01:04]

Craig: Yao, as much as I would love to do this in French, my French is very, very, very bad. I’m sorry.

Gogoly: Yeah, don’t worry. I don’t want to speak in French either.

Craig: Whew. Okay.

Craig: So, I know that the people who know you, know you really well. You’re passionate, and you’re vibrant, and like I mentioned in the beginning, your passion for community, it comes through. But my fear is that a lot of people don’t have any idea who you are. So can you tell me a little bit about … Just draw me a little picture of where did Yao come from and what made you who you are today?

Gogoly: Okay. First, I’m going to start talking about my name, because I think it must feel strange for people to call me with my family name. So, my name is Gogoly Yao, Yao being my family name, but people call me Yao because it’s a bit easier, I would say. It started in France, I think. Someone called me Yao and moved to the city I moved in, and everyone started catching the name and calling me Yao.

Craig: Caught on.

Gogoly: Yeah, exactly. When I moved in the UK, Gogoly was a little bit too complicated for people to say, and because they were calling me Yao already, so I was like, “Oh, yeah. Yao. Call me Yao.” So, that would be the reason why Yao is my name. So, yes, I used to live in France, around Paris. It’s a little bit complicated. My mom moved to Paris when I was really little, maybe two or three. I used to live in Africa in Ivory Coast, Côte d’Ivoire with my dad and his family. Then, I joined my mom when I was five or six in France. We were living in Paris, [French 00:02:56] arrondissement.

Craig: [French 00:02:57] 25th?

Gogoly: Yeah. No, 20th district.

Craig: [French 00:03:05]

Gogoly: [French 00:03:05]

Craig: Oh. [French 00:03:05] 20th. Sorry.

Gogoly: 20th.

Craig: Told you I’m slow.

Gogoly: Yeah, it’s okay.

Craig: [French 00:03:12] 20th.

Gogoly: Yeah. So, yeah, I spent most of my youth over there going to school and doing [inaudible 00:03:22] things.

Craig: How did you get … So Taekwondo, how did you get drawn into martial arts?

Gogoly: Yeah, it’s not a real story. I was looking to do kung fu because I thought that kung fu was going to be really hard for me to learn. And my goal was just to sweat, to be honest. I just wanted to sweat, to do something physical. But there was no kung fu school nearby. So my friends say, “Oh, I do Taekwondo, come.” I said yes. I went and it was great. It was absolutely brilliant and what I like was the people in the club. We were doing a lot of things together, going out and volleying, everything. And obviously, training.

Craig: A little bit of training.

Gogoly: Yeah, that’s what got me into Taekwondo. And the club I was in was actually one of the best clubs in France because … So our coach was one of the Team France …

Craig: For the national …

Gogoly: Yeah, the national team participant. And now he’s the national coach. So it was quite high standards and we did a lot of competition winning … not winning, but the usual.

Craig: And how old were you when you moved? Was it just you who moved to London? How old were you and what brought you across the channel?

Gogoly: Okay, so yeah. From France, I was looking to improve myself. So first, I was looking for work, because I finished my study in IT, it’s network management. But it was quite challenging, so I was like, “Okay, maybe my CV is not good enough. So I’m going to try to learn English and then people will be like, ‘Oh, yeah. I want that guy.’” So that’s why I moved here. I was like, “Okay, I’m going to stay in London for six months, a year. And then when my English is better, then I can come back and then work, find a job.” Something like this.

Craig: How long has it been since you’ve been [inaudible 00:05:41]?

Gogoly: So I arrived in London in 2006.

Craig: [crosstalk 00:05:46]

Gogoly: And then, wow, I’m still here. Yeah, so nearly 13 years. And, yeah. I really love London. London is great.

Craig: What about it? When you say you love it, what about it came to mind when you were just saying that?

Gogoly: I love the ambiance. I love that there’s a sense of freedom about London. I called it Vice City, because you can do whatever you want. So you can do the worst, but that allows you to do the best, as well. And you don’t feel like people are watching or questioning or doubting what you want to do. So there’s a sense of freedom. Obviously, there’s law and cameras and stuff like this, but this is really transparent, I think. If you don’t have anything to …[French 00:06:40]?

Craig: To hide.

Gogoly: Yeah, if you don’t have anything to hide, then there’s no point in all that.

Craig: I’m just excited that I found the right word randomly.

Gogoly: Yeah, yeah. But that’s it, really.

Craig: [French 00:06:51]

Gogoly: So, yeah. I really like London. When I arrived to London, the first thing that shocked me is that, in the Tube, I could speak to anyone and they will reply to me without any judgment or anything like this. So I would ask for my way and they would give me my way and then translate [crosstalk 00:07:12].

Craig: “What are these things that are helpful? I don’t know.” [crosstalk 00:07:15]

Gogoly: Yeah, it could feel like, oh, that should be normal. But it’s not always normal.

Craig: Not as normal as it should be.

Gogoly: Yeah, exactly.

Craig: The world would be a better place if it was like that.

Gogoly: Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. That’s me in London, really. And then how I found parkour, because … yeah. So I watched the movie Yamakasi, like a lot of people I guess. And at first, I didn’t think anything of it. I thought, “Oh, yeah. It’s a movie.” But then I saw the documentary on the [inaudible 00:07:50] about the Yamakasi and the training. And I was like, “Oh, actually that’s something that you can do.”

Craig: Right, it looked so spectacular when I first saw and then it takes a moment to realize that they’re just regular people. You could do that.

Gogoly: Yeah, exactly. So I was like, “Okay, I’m going to try that,” because at that time, I was scared of a lot of things. So scared of heights, speed, being upside down, playgrounds, trees, swings, a lot of things. So I didn’t like any of this. So I was like, “Okay, as an adult, it doesn’t make sense to be scared of all this.”

Craig: be rational!

Gogoly: “So I’m going to do something that’s going to challenge my perception of this.” So that’s how I started parkour, at first. But in France, I couldn’t find any information of where to go, what to do. So I did what was in the movie and they were doing a lot of jumps. And it didn’t go well. I twisted my ankle several times. So I was like, “Okay, that’s not for me.”

Gogoly: But then, when I arrived to London, I found Dan and Forrest who were teaching next to my house. I was like, “Oh, cool.”

Craig: Oh, wow.

Gogoly: That’s really lucky, yeah.

Craig: Lucky.

Gogoly: That’s really lucky. So then I went to one class and I was like, “Oh, yes. That’s it.” I didn’t know what it was called, as well. And they were saying parkour. I was like, “Okay, parkour.” So, yeah. I started like this.

Craig: Yao, that gives us just a quick glimpse as to how you found … I always like the way the French speakers sometimes just refer to it as the movement and it sort of is this platform agnostic. So how did you progress from the ankle twisting, self-attempted to somebody who’s quite confident? How did you get from that beginning to where you are now?

Gogoly: So my focus in training has never been really about the movement. It has been about my fears. Like I said, that’s where it started, but I didn’t know at the time. I didn’t know a lot of things. I didn’t know where it was, what I was looking for, and what I could get. So I was following what others were doing. And I think I was limited by my ability to move, so I did a lot of big jumps, a lot of quick training and things like this.

Craig: It’s very powerful things.

Gogoly: Yes, exactly. I used my power a lot. And that didn’t help me, but it helped me at the same time because soon after I started, I got tendonitis in both knees and then I couldn’t jump.

Craig: “Now, what am I going to do?”

Gogoly: Yeah, exactly. I couldn’t jump. So then I insisted, I was like, “Okay, no one is doing something else, so I’m going to just still try jumping,” but then the pain was too much to bear so I stopped jumping and I couldn’t jump for three years. So that’s where I discovered … It’s not really discovered because people were doing conditioning before, but I just was like, “Oh, I don’t need conditioning, I’m strong,” which wasn’t true at all. So then I discovered conditioning and small movement and that actually changed my practice a little bit. And I noticed that my strength was just a display. It wasn’t a real strength. It was just the big muscle activating, but the link between this big muscle wasn’t there. So that’s why I had to practice and to train to be able to be more comfortable. And that’s really important, but because when we started Esprit Concrete, that’s what came up again. But not in the muscle way, but more in my understanding of myself and others, my relationship with people, I would say.

Gogoly: So I’m really present as a person, but maybe the subtle things, I couldn’t perceive them. So, yeah. It was a lot of perception changing throughout my career as a mover or coach that happened to lead me to where I am now. So, yeah.

Craig: But I’m always torn by this … If I sit here until I have the perfect question and then I ask you the perfect question and you give me the perfect answer, if I do that for 60 episodes, it gets suspicious that I always have the perfect question.

Gogoly: Oh, okay.

Craig: So I always feel a little guilty. I always want to make it be … I make it perfect and then I try and mess it up a little in my head so it’s kind of a half perfect, which I know that’s overthinking my craft. You’ve mentioned that maybe your first experience with strength, you’ve later realized that that wasn’t the truth or it wasn’t true strength. And then you talked about how the injury made you rethink that. But then you’ve mentioned very briefly that it’s come up again, this idea that physical strength might not be true strength. Now I’m like, can you unpack that? What is it about Esprit Concrete and the current timeframe that’s taken you in this circle back to the same idea?

Gogoly: It’s really, like I was saying, the connection between these strengths because I was … So I’m going to explain it how I explain to the student. So basically, I was really powerful. Power is strength with speed. So you don’t need to carry the whole weight throughout the whole range directly. You can keep one part and go quickly to the end range. So that’s the skipping I was doing for most of it and it was the same with my connection with people. I was avoiding a lot of area in myself, I would say, because I wasn’t comfortable, I was scared, I was …

Craig: Uncertain, maybe.

Gogoly: Yeah, I didn’t realize what was my actual focus. So that’s why, I think, it’s funny that I’ve came back. So first, I found movement and I got hurt and I realized, “Oh, okay. Maybe I’m skipping steps and I’m avoiding things, so I need to work on them.” And second, I founded Esprit Concrete and I realized that is the same thing happening, but it’s more emotional, social, and psychological. And that’s thank to Kasturi because I could have spent my whole life not realizing that something is missing. Or what am I doing with myself? So how is my attitude affecting others or affecting my training or affecting my perception? So, yeah.

Craig: Yao, I think there’s a lot of … That was a few words, but I really think there’s a lot in there about this idea of the show of physical power or how you were describing your relationships with other people, how that’s really just a show and there’s more layers in there. So I’m wondering … One way to attack this would be to say, is there anything that you think you could have told yourself before you came to London to say, “All right, here’s the mistake that you’re going to make and here’s something that I think you should try,” and the reason this is a good tool is it because it makes you think about what you think is wrong and also what’s a good tool for fixing it. And that may help us pry that open a little further for people who are listening.

Gogoly: Okay, yes. There’s a lot I could have told myself. One I would say is perfection doesn’t exit and take your time to make mistakes because I think, when I was a kid, I had this idea that humans were not great. They were mean or inconsiderate and they couldn’t understand each other, or they couldn’t live with each other in peace or something like this. And then it feels like I detached myself from feeling because of this, so then I couldn’t relate to people. And all my relationships, all my perception was perfect. So I couldn’t understand others, basically. If there was something unjust, I would say it’s unjust and then stop at that. So there wouldn’t be an gray area in anything. All entities have to be perfect. So that’s how I grew up and that’s how I was perceiving things. So that stopped me from understanding that maybe people have their own desire, their own past, their own …

Craig: Reason.

Gogoly: … fixed laws and stuff like this. So it was a perfect entity. I was comparing humans to … Do you know Doctor Manhattan? In the Watchmen.

Craig: Oh, yes. Yes.

Gogoly: Yes. So that’s how I was seeing that we should be, but it doesn’t make sense, basically, when you think about it. So it’s really this, take time to make your mistake and making a mistake is okay. That’s what I would tell myself.

Craig: Do you think you would’ve listened?

Gogoly: Yes. I think I would’ve listened because I wanted to learn. I wanted to learn and I wanted to know. I wanted to be able. Nothing in particular, but I wanted to be able to be better as a person. But like I said, I didn’t know and I didn’t understand what I was going to or what I was supposed to look for. So it was just me and doing things that I believed had to be done. So it was mostly … When I was little, I was really training my body more than anything else. And so I was testing how do I react with pain, for example. Can I control all the muscles in my body? I don’t know, a lot of different things. But I never understood the concept of personal emotion, I would say, and how it affects people. Yeah. So, yeah. I think I would have listened.

Craig: Are there any things that you’re currently struggling with?

Gogoly: Yes. So that’s not an easy question, just so you know.

Craig: I was aware.

Gogoly: Because of my upbringing, I was mostly alone all the time. My mom was working a lot. My brother was at school and when he was at home, we didn’t talk much. And because of my understanding of people, I couldn’t make lasting relationships. So I didn’t have friends or things like this. So most of the time was with myself, so I had to count on myself so I didn’t need anyone else, really. So from that, trusting others is quite hard. Yeah, it’s really hard. So that’s what I’ve been working on for, I think, a year or two years, trying to trust others. We progressed a lot, I think, but it’s still challenging.

Craig: So what does that look like when you say working on trusting others? Is it just randomly asking people to catch you when you fall backwards? [crosstalk 00:20:06]

Gogoly: [crosstalk 00:20:06]

Craig: “Could you hold this hundred-pound belt for me while I [inaudible 00:20:09]?”

Gogoly: So, no. It’s not randomly. For example, it’s being able to accept help. That’s something that I don’t think I need because I have a lot of knowledge, sadly. Not sadly, but sadly. And I have a lot of experience as well. So what people would say, I’d be like, “No, but I know how it works, so why would I listen to you?” But then if you add this with the plan of the level of consciousness, maybe that’s something else I don’t see, but that, I don’t realize it when I talk about it. So I need to be able to give my trust to someone to say that, “Okay, maybe they know something that I don’t know, so I should listen to them, see how it goes.” And this is really complicated because habit. I’m used to being me and do me.

Craig: So am I. I’m with you.

Gogoly: So that’s the training we do. I used to train Georgia and recently we’ve been training back flips for me. So I’m training back flips because I don’t like going backwards. I don’t like being upside down.

Craig: I agree, I agree.

Gogoly: So the technique is really easy. It’s just like, you jump up, you get your knees to your chest, and that’s it. And then you wait.

Craig: You wait for what? The ambulance? [inaudible 00:21:41]

Gogoly: Yeah, that’s it. So in the back flip, there are so many things that scare me, like going back. Why would I do that? That doesn’t make sense. So I have to trust the process. I have to trust that gravity is going to do its work and the momentum that I’m generating is going to do the work and that I’m going to land on my feet. I don’t like being upside down. I don’t like speed. I don’t like spinning, turning. So back flips is the worst for me, I would say. But then to train it, we’re not training it indoors with mat. We’re training it outside. So me and Georgia, so I have to give my trust to her to spot me. We’ve been doing more things before with the team and things like this, but that’s the last development of it. And, yeah. It’s happening slowly, but I find it really hard to go through this. Even if I know, it doesn’t mean that, “Oh, I know now it’s going to happen [inaudible 00:22:49],” it just had been a habit I accumulated for all my life that I need to get rid of. And, yeah. That’s what training is, really.

Gogoly: So I learned front flip a lot easier because it’s going forwards and it’s me deciding to like,… It’s a lot safer to do a front flip than a back flip, but naturally, [inaudible 00:23:12]. So, yeah. So there’s a lot of things I’m working on. Yeah, so coming back from the back flip is the idea of control, as well. So while you’re in the air, you don’t have control. It’s just gravity doing its job or momentum doing its job. But I like to be in control because it’s always been me. So if I’m not in control, something bad will happen. Even if it’s not true, that’s the belief my upbringing gave me, so it’s in my body. It’s like, “Oh, if you’re not in control, something bad it going to happen,” even if it hasn’t been proved for awhile, it’s still happening because I believe it. So, yeah.

Craig: Yeah. What’s one thing that you think people get wrong about you or that they misunderstand about you?

Gogoly: I think people have the perception that I’m not serious. But everything I do is quite serious, so there’s no doubt. If I want to do it, I’m going to do it 100%. It’s not a light matter for me. So if I joke, I’m going to joke. If I laugh, I’m going to laugh. There’s nothing trivial, I would say, about what I’m doing. And I take it seriously to do what I’ve decided to do. So when I train, for example, if it’s not difficult or painful, it’s probably that I’m not training. So I’m just reinforcing a bad habit that I have. Otherwise, it should be complicated. It should be something that I have trouble doing, except if I’ve trained it before. Even that. That means that I’m not training it anymore, I’m just doing it. So, yes. That’s maybe that side of me that I don’t think people know because I don’t spend a lot of time with people. I’m most of the time with myself in my mind thinking of what to get better at or how to get better at.

Craig: [crosstalk 00:25:19]

Gogoly: Yeah. At things. So, yeah.

Craig: I said it before, I’ll say it again, I love to collect stories because I think hearing what story [inaudible 00:25:27] tells you a lot about that person and their passion. So, yeah. Is there a story that you’d like to share?

Gogoly: I don’t have one yet.

Craig: Okay, there’s a first time for everything. So I have a Yao story. I was at FA Moves and we were doing one of Yan’s night QM sessions. I’m working with Stany Mallet who’s my partner. And I’m dying, I’m [inaudible 00:25:57]. And I’m QMing along, and you motored by me in QM. Like, [inaudible 00:26:03]. But as you went by, I got the most pleasant, “Hi, Craig!” And I think you were … I was like, [inaudible 00:26:10] but for some reason I hadn’t seen you yet. And you motored by in the dark and I was upside down, probably I’m sure with my head sweating, and I had no clue who it was. And then I was thinking, “Oh, there’s only one person that could’ve been. That had to have been Yao.” It was just so pleasant and so happy. So that’s my story about Yao, training. It was super fun. And I think I actually managed to go a few more steps before Yan called time and hit the sprinting [inaudible 00:26:30]. Just motored by me.

Gogoly: Oh, I have … Okay, that’s not … Yes, interesting. I have a story, but I’m not sure I want to say it here because I went to teach in Turin, I think it was two years ago, three years, I don’t remember. And you understand why I don’t remember because, for one of the last workshops we did, that day was raining a lot and I was demonstrating a bounce off. So a bounce off is like cat leap where you don’t actually grab the wall…

Craig: [crosstalk 00:27:03]

Gogoly: Yeah. So it was a really small cat leap, so I demonstrated the bounce off and it was really wet so I slipped. My foot slipped and I didn’t use my hand for the bounce off and my head hit the wall. And I lost my memory of the day. So I was concussed. And for maybe the whole night, my memory was resetting. So I don’t remember that day and most of the event before. There’s a lot of things I couldn’t remember after that. So for maybe a month after, dates were a little bit weird for me so I couldn’t understand …

Craig: Which one’s before, which one’s after.

Gogoly: Yeah, what a day or what a month, or things like this. Because a lot of my memory is my weak point, so that’s probably why I don’t have a story to tell you.

Craig: All right, so just thinking for the cat bounce back with no hands, what are you working on within Esprit Concrete now? What are your goals? What do you see that you want Esprit Concrete to accomplish, say, in the next year?

Gogoly: Oh, in the next year, that’s really short time.

Craig: Two years? How much time do you want?

Gogoly: I’m not sure, actually. A lot of what we do depends on Kasturi’s work because she developed Esprit Concrete method, so it would make more sense to set the timeline to hers, kind of, with her work. First, a thesis and then see what we do with it. We talked about a lot of different areas. Our goal, Esprit Concrete, is to help people help themselves. So there’s a lot of ways to do it, but we want to find a way that is not restrictive. So we don’t want people to feel like they have to adhere to whatever we’re saying. We want to keep the freedom of choice and decision making to people to be part of the journey or not. So that’s why we don’t really plan, “Next year, we want to do this.” We plan what would be the best option for all this, so then we’re not restricted by timing or agendas. So, yeah.

Gogoly: I feel like I’m going to give you a lot of abstract concepts that probably wouldn’t mean anything if you don’t know what we’re doing, but there wouldn’t be any other reply to your questions. So I’m sorry in advance.

Craig: No, don’t be sorry. It’s fine. Not everything is supposed to make sense. There was a TV commercial when I grew up as a kid about two people with chocolate and peanut butter. And they were in a supermarket and they run into each other. It’s really stupid, but they run into each other and they wind up with chocolate and peanut butter combined. And not everybody grew up [crosstalk 00:30:30].

Gogoly: Yeah, [crosstalk 00:30:30].

Craig: Yeah, who would ever eat chocolate and peanut butter together? I know that sounds crazy, but what I was thinking was, “Esprit Concrete, pieces of it came from Kasturi and pieces of it really come from you,” and I’m just wondering, at what point did the two of you realize that Esprit Concrete was this thing that, together, you could bring to the world? If that crazy question that isn’t a question makes sense.

Gogoly: At what point we realized … I think I would say something that you’re probably not going to like, but I don’t remember. That [inaudible 00:31:09]. I don’t remember the exact point, but I know that we had a lot of discussion about concept and training because the way I train, I don’t train movement. It doesn’t interest me to do movement. I use a movement to train whatever I have to train. So if it’s fear of heights, I’m going to say, “Okay, I’m going to go on that scaffolding and do stuff,” for example. If it’s landing on the small things, I’m going to jump with different angle into a rail. But I’m not going to say, “Okay, today I’m going go and do …”

Craig: Jumps or …

Gogoly: Yeah, jumps. Yeah. So it’s always a concept that I’m going to train. And that idea met her understanding of human brain. And from that concept, we got another concept is that what I’m addressing is not a move, it’s a vulnerability that I have. And so then, I think, that’s where Esprit Concrete came up.

Craig: It became this thing to try and …

Gogoly: Yeah, exactly.

Craig: It became this thing which tries to take the vulnerabilities and, I would say, go at them. In other words, the vulnerability is the thing that we want to work on.

Gogoly: Yeah. Eh …

Craig: No, correct me. Correct me.

Gogoly: No, we are not working on the vulnerabilities. For example, in our classes, we’re not trying to get people to work on their vulnerabilities, we’re trying to make them see them, because working on them takes a long time. So we make sure they see them and once they see them, then we can do something about it. If they don’t see them, so probably they’re not ready. And if they’re not ready, to push them could be dangerous. So we’re just helping them to have another perspective and … yeah.

Gogoly: So that’s what Kasturi did with me because I was training concept, but it wasn’t related to me actually, because it was just like what I was saying about Doctor Manhattan. It was that perfect idea of fear as this, “Oh, you’re scared of that thing,” but it wasn’t related to me. And she brought the individual in that thing and made the training specific to me. And that was a lot harder because jumping a hundred times on the bar is really easy. If you’re okay doing that, that means that you’re probably not addressing something that is a lot harder to not skip. So then she made it personal to me and the jumping a bar would need some preparation to be able to happen. So that’s how Esprit Concrete happened, really.

Gogoly: And I can actually talk about Kasturi a bit, if you want. She’s incredible. I don’t know if you noticed, but she has a perception that is quite different from me and from a lot of people I know, because she’s … I don’t know if it’s planning or if she just … older things, because there are a lot of things she talks about I have no clue it is. And it’s not just about the studies she did or the life she had, the upbringing she had. She talks about energy. And for me, I don’t understand what it means, talking about energy. I know that I have another perception. I perceive more things than some people, but she is just on another plane, I would think. That’s why she’s able to do whatever she’s doing. She’s always working. There’s no rest time. I think she’s working too much. She does things that I wouldn’t be able to do, definitely not. And that’s why I think Esprit Concrete is working as well as it is now, because she loves what she’s doing and she’s very good at it and she can find the way to help a person. I’m not going to say everyone, because she hasn’t helped everyone, but she can see a person and see things that that person wouldn’t imagine seeing. So it’s really depend on perception. They pile up.

Gogoly: I used this last weekend, actually. So before I met her, I felt like I was a fish in water, but that fish had never seen the sky and can’t imagine the sky exists. And then she showed me things and then I’m like, “Oh, my god. I can actually go into the sky,” and then I’m like a flying fish. But then I’m a flying fish, but there are other perceptions as well. So someone is on the ground in the mountain or something like this and one is a bird, and then there’s an alien that can see everything. So I feel like she’s an alien that can see. She has all these perception things and she’s like, “Oh, look. Maybe if you look at this, you can see you’re reacting like this and then the best option for you is to work on that.” So, yeah. That’s what kind of Esprit Concrete is doing.

Craig: [crosstalk 00:36:49]

Gogoly: Yeah, exactly. So she has her perception and she’s using my training that I used to have to make it happen kind of. So that’s the mix. So her perception and the physical training that I did, that’s what we give in the classes.

Craig: Is there anything else that you want to talk about or share that I haven’t gotten to?

Gogoly: Yes, I can talk about training Georgia and Daniel. So it has been a really interesting parkour. This is the French way of it.

Craig: That’s fine. [crosstalk 00:37:28]

Gogoly: Yeah, exactly. I started training Georgia before Esprit Concrete started. So I think the second time I saw her, I was like, “Oh, do you want to train with me?” And then I was with parkour generations and they started the AP program. I was trying to put her on it. I’m not sure what happened with it. But I started training her really early when she started training but, like I said with myself, I couldn’t understand what she had, really, to work on. So I trained her because she was really similar to me in some ways and I knew that I could help, because that’s my goal. I want to be able to help. Maybe it’s selfish because I want to feel good or something like this, but I want to be able to help.

Gogoly: So I started training her, not physically, but for the mindset of being able to do things. So her fears, her hesitations, her capacity to train. And I don’t think I really succeeded at that time until Kasturi arrived with Esprit Concrete. And then everything seems a lot more focused. So we had less training sessions with Esprit Concrete, but they were more effective. So what we train her first was the mindset. So being able to understand and challenge perception, because it’s mostly about perception like how you’ve been raised, what you usually do, what coping mechanism you had to safeguard yourself when you were a kid, for example. And we were trying to make her see that she could challenge that.

Gogoly: She actually did it really well. We recently changed our training methods. So now she’s not training perception anymore, not as much as before. But now, we’re starting the physical training. So that’s why the back flip comes in and all the rest. So she wants to be a performer and stunt double. So we’re training her for this and being able to stunt double. And … Oh, yeah. And competition. Sorry.

Craig: Competitions.

Gogoly: So we asked Georgia, when she came to us, what she wanted to do. And she was interested in a lot of things. So performance, stunt doubling, acting, music.

Craig: [inaudible 00:40:31]

Gogoly: Everything. It’s mainly everything. And then we said, yes, we could help her with this. In this, there was competition as well. So we had to find a way to keep her … it’s not sane, it’s … keep her …

Craig: Focused?

Gogoly: Not focused.

Craig: Grounded?

Gogoly: Grounded, yes. It’s similar to grounded. Grounded enough to do competitions. So I hope she will talk about it. So we have to find a way to keep her grounded enough to sustain competition, to be able to compete without enforcing her bad habits and her unhelpful coping mechanism. So the mindset and the physical training were all guided to do this. This is a work that is not feasible. You can’t quantify it. You can’t say, “Oh, we did this, this, this and now it’s happened.” It’s a process that takes place not in training session, it takes place all the time. And I just wanted to share that process, that it’s quite … tedious?

Craig: Yes.

Gogoly: Yes. It’s quite tedious for the person going through and the people around them. So she’s not the only one who’s been affected by it. We’ve been affected by it and probably people around her have been affected by it. But now, when she looks back, she can say safely that she’s grown from that process. And I would hope that if she had to do it again, she would do it.

Craig: She would choose to do it again.

Gogoly: And that’s the Esprit Concrete method and that’s what I am going through now, but it takes me a little bit longer to get to the results she’s doing because of who we are, really. Who I am, who she is, and how resistant we can be. So, yeah.

Craig: And of course, the final question. Three words to describe your practice.

Gogoly: Train everything, every time.

Craig: Thank you very much, Yao. It’s been a pleasure.

Gogoly: Thank you.

Craig: This was episode 54. For more information, go to moversmindset.com/54. There’s more to the Movers Mindset project than just this podcast. Visit our website for more free content, to sign up for our newsletter, or to read about how you can support this project. And I’ll leave you with a final thought from Thelonious Monk. Sometimes, it’s to your advantage for people to think you are crazy. Thanks for listening.