Craig: Welcome to the Movers Mindset Podcast, where today, we’re doing something a little different. In our special 50th episode, I’m joined by some of the Movers Mindset team, Kristen Swantek, Miguel Chero and Melissa Way. We discuss what each of us does, how our roles fit together, and how far we’ve come as a team. We explain working remotely, the freedoms and challenges that come with it, and some of the strategies we use to make it work. We each share our favorite episodes, things we’ve learned and what each of us finds to be special about the project.
Craig: Hello, I’m Craig Constantine.
Kristen Swantek: Hello, I’m Kristen Swantek.
Melissa Way: Hi, I’m Melissa Way.
Miguel Chero: Hi, I am Miguel Chero.
Craig: Kristen Swantek is our resident cat herder, in charge of making sure everything that goes into an episode gets done on time and putting out all the other fires as they arise. There’s a lot more to Movers Mindset than just the podcast. So she juggles a bunch of hot potatoes. She’s also the, no, to my incessant, “Hey, I have an idea.” Welcome, Kristen.
Kristen Swantek: Thanks, Craig. Melissa Way sends all the emails, trying to talk people into talking to us, then figuring out when and how to make it happen. In short, she’s the person who socializes, so I don’t have to. Welcome, Melissa.
Melissa Way: Thanks, Kristen. Miguel Chero is the ghost in the room, though today. He’s here in person. He handles all of our audio and is rarely seen, but can be heard in the final result of each episode. He’s the hard job of deciding what stays and what goes, could just edit himself out of this recording. So hopefully he keeps himself in there.
Miguel Chero: Thanks, Melissa. Craig Constantine, creator and voice of the podcast has always loved talking and storytelling so much that he started the podcast so he could go hang out and talk to cool people. Welcome, Craig.
Craig: Thanks, Miguel. I see what you did there with the so’s.
Melissa Way: So, Craig?
Craig: So, yes.
Melissa Way: You want to tell us…
Craig: All right. So this is so thing I found after I did a few interviews that I had this verbal tic. And when I wanted to begin talking, I would say. So I think the best place to start, and I said it over and over and over. So I tried to squash it. And it’s really hard to not say so before I begin every question or every sentence. And Miguel has the wonderful job of hearing me go over and over and over. So, oh, I hate when I say that.
Craig: I want to ask you. So it was really clever to hear him like step on the so’s really hard in his introduction. So that’s the story behind the so’s.
Miguel Chero: I think probably in every episode that we’ve done, I think there are at least 10 so’s that should have been in the episode, but they’re not.
Craig: Well, I thought that was a joke about editing together a whole bunch of all of those, like we could probably get just get them all different pitches and turn into like one of those songs where they make a song [crosstalk 00:02:47].
Craig: So it’s always hard to begin every interview because the first question is always the hardest one. So let’s start with, I just want to say thanks a million to the team. There are people on the team who aren’t here, but especially to you three, for putting up with my craziness, might be a good way to put it my continuous random, “Let’s go this way. Let’s go that way. Let’s…”
Craig: So I really appreciate all the work. I don’t think we had any blood, but there’s been like sweat and tears, for sure. I appreciate everybody’s hard work. And this absolutely unequivocally would be not in any remotely way possible, without you guys actually doing everything that you do, including keeping me sane and in line. So thank you very much for that.
Miguel Chero: Yeah. Thank you, thank you for the opportunity for this whole thing.
Craig: I’m still getting used to hearing you. [crosstalk 00:03:37] Miguel, you may cut that out or put this in and now you would keep answering me.
Miguel Chero: Yes, I can. You’re very welcome. Before this actually, when you were talking about just talking about this opportunity, I came out of temple with a film degree. So like I was already messing around with audio and film and having been on sets, acting and such. So like it just fit the bill that you needed somebody to, “Hey, I need someone to listen to my interviews. [crosstalk 00:04:04] And I don’t want to do this anymore.” And then just hand it off to me. Yeah.
Craig: I think it’s interesting. I don’t know how you do it. I mean, I know how you do it, but I don’t know how you do it. I did a bunch, I did the first maybe a dozen of them, whatever number it was, and all I was trying to do was go through the raw recording and decide which pieces should be kept. I wasn’t even like trying to add bridge music or record, I was just, this goes, this stays, this goes. I was like printing them out with like a pencil and like sitting in airports. I was going crazy.
Craig: I just, there’s something about it that I can’t wrap my brain around. Like what, “I can’t do it. It’s not possible.” So I guess a question since I actually can talk to you, a question. I don’t want to say what’s wrong with you that you enjoy doing this, but I want to say something like what about what you do is, so like it seems to speak to some passion that you have, I’m just curious what about what you’re doing for the project really strikes the passion for you? Like what?
Miguel Chero: I think it’s just the story in everybody’s heads are just everybody that carries, everybody carries a story that’s just in their heads. I actually used to be a, what is it, a tight, like, I’m not a typewriter, but I’m like, I used to type for court cases.
Craig: A stenographer?
Miguel Chero: A stenographer. Yeah. But I wasn’t like in the courtroom and stuff or like-
Miguel Chero: Yeah. Yeah. Just like afterwards, after the, like, my mom worked as a paralegal. And she dealt with a lot of court cases. So like she sent, like, she gave me files as work like in high school, and I would just type them up. And she’d be like, “Yeah, that’s $1 per page.” There was like one that I wrote was like, 120 something pages.
Miguel Chero: Like it was a good money day. But like it was also a really long time. And it was a lot like random court case about like a gogo bar and their boiler problem. And that was like the whole two weeks of [inaudible 00:05:57] very interesting. So like, I don’t, I think always, whatever story it is, I’ve always found something very fascinating of just listening through to everybody and just how they speak, and how they interact with each other and just how they are as a person. Yeah. So, I think that answers your question.
Craig: Yeah. Sure. Absolutely. And this is not an interview. This is just, so everybody knows what we’re trying to do here. The goal is, we don’t ever, if we can help it, we don’t ever talk about how the podcast gets made, we don’t talk about what goes on behind the scenes, or how we edit or what we do, or even how we travel to record them.
Craig: And so, this is a bit of a chance for us to share some of the, I don’t know what’s good adjective, insane, inconceivable-
Kristen Swantek: Delusional.
Craig: Delusional, yes. The amount of work that we put into creating one episode now, one episode every week, yay, team. So I think it would be cool for us talk a little about that. And we can go there first, or I think it might be more fun to sort of riff off of what I asked Miguel which is like, maybe would do this, like question for the table for $500, or [inaudible 00:06:59]. No, not just kidding-
Melissa Way: Do you have to buzz in?
Craig: Not really, not really. You don’t have to buzz in now, you can just raise your hand to sort of ask like, what about the project is like the thing that you’re most passionate about? Like, what is it about that makes it so you keep working on it for anybody else other than Miguel who wants to answer and probably not me, because then I’m talking to myself.
Kristen Swantek: I think for me, it’s I’m seeing the interactions that the project kind of facilitates. So for anyone who doesn’t know, I recently just re taken over our social media. So everything that you see posted on Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, the Parkour forum, the newsletter-
Craig: Et cetera, right.
Kristen Swantek: Et cetera. Yeah, that’s what I do now, that I love, just like putting something out there, sending it out into the world, and then seeing people who I’ve never met, or I’ve never even heard of interacting with our page or interacting with someone else that they met through our page and through our work. And that’s what I like to see, like fostering connections from people who otherwise would never have met.
Craig: Glad you brought that up, because that’s one of the main things about the Movers Mindset project as a whole that I’m really passionate about is creating these connections between people, the idea that everybody would love to have not just friends, like, “I want someone to go have an ice cream or a beer with,” but like to actually have a chance to sit down and talk about things and explore fun ideas. And I think a lot of people don’t have a space to find that online. So they might go to Facebook, or they might go to the social media. But it’s kind of tricky if you find a Facebook or a social media page that you really like, it’s tough, like you can’t really like interact with the storror guys too much, it’s really hard to like, get a one on one relationship with somebody.
Craig: And part of what I had always hoped was that if people listened to an interview that they would then feel they know a little bit more about the guest, and that maybe if they ever see the guests, they’d be able to talk to them. And rather than run up and say, “Oh, that was awesome, or can I have your autograph,” like to actually walk up and say, “You know you brought up that point about X or Y. And I wondered if you’d unpack that more.” And I think on the other side of that, I know that the people that we interview, would love to have more of those conversations about not that everybody brings up trivial topics, but to have more conversations about deep topics.
Craig: So yeah, you’re you’re seeing that in social media, and I see it there too. And I would love to just every once in a while I catch people talking like in, in real life talking about something where they talked to me about a guest. And I’m like, “Well, they’re right over there. Or you can go talk to them, let’s go this way.” So that’s why I love seeing that kind of interaction thing. So far Melissa has posed in.
Melissa Way: It was just kind of, I guess, partly going off of what Kristen was saying, there’s the connection piece, partly because of my role in the project, I get to have, like, I get to have that because I go along. For most of the interviews, I’m the first point of contact for guests. So that kind of ability to meet people and get to know people and hear their stories, I think is really exciting.
Melissa Way: But the thing that I, especially I’m really passionate about is that we have a platform, Movers Mindset is a platform that can give people a voice. So sometimes it’s for people who are like well known, and people want to hear what the have to say about different things. And sometimes, it’s for people who aren’t necessarily well known, but still have really amazing things to say. So giving people a platform and a voice to express their thoughts and express what it is that they have to share, I think is something that’s really awesome and unique about the project.
Miguel Chero: Yeah, there’s something really, really special about when, I don’t know, just the simple fact of somebody being very interested in what somebody has to say. Because like, it was Father’s Day like this past Father’s Day, I went to a dinner at like PF Chang’s with my family. And this waitress talked to my dad, my dad has a very like, has an accent because he’s from Peru. And the waitress talked to him. He’s like, “How are you doing, sir?” Or like, “How was your day? How’s your father’s day?” And he’s like, “Good, good. Yeah, I watched the,” I would do a Spanish accent. But honestly, I’m Spanish. I don’t really know how to do that. I’d have to watch it first. So this will probably sound Russian, but whatever. He’s like, “It was very good, I watched the Copa America, I was watching football.” And she she looked at him and just stops like, “Good.” And then walked away. And I was like-
Craig: It was all because she was out of her depth like, way actual human interaction, you’re not used to this.
Miguel Chero: It’s like a common thing that people ask those kinds of questions. Like any stranger, like a cashier or somebody here, but they don’t really want to know about that. It’s just a courtesy kind of thing. Like they just want to hear like a good, oh, good.
Melissa Way: Right. There’s unexpected response.
Miguel Chero: Yeah, exactly. It’s a thing, it’s a thing with everybody in the world. So like, it’s really something to just actually pay attention to somebody, what they actually have to say, and actually really ask, “How are you doing? Like, really? Like, how are you?” That’s one thing that I think I’ve picked up a lot from the podcast that I just bring along with me wherever I go, like nowadays is actually get to pay attention to people and just actually dive into them a little bit. If they, allow…
Craig: Maybe not the registers cashier, right?
Miguel Chero: Yeah, not even-
Craig: With 12 people behind you [inaudible 00:12:04]. Maybe we should take a minute to unpack who are these people? Like it occurs to me that we just dove in and started and some people, I’m sure like, for example, the guests know who some of us are. But maybe we should go around a little bit. I mean, we did it in the introduction, I said that Kristen is our resident cat herder. That’s really what she does. It’s Can you please make sure all this stuff doesn’t all fall on the floor? But how do we do that, do you want to, it’s one thing if I say what I think you are, but it’s another if you just like, self identify as what your role is. So maybe we go that way.
Miguel Chero: Define cat herding.
Kristen Swantek: Or we do both, see how well we match up.
Craig: No, that’s bad. All right, who wants to self define their job first?
Kristen Swantek: I’ll start, why not, a volunteer’s tribute. In the team, we all have, in our team management system, we all named ourselves. Craig gave me my name, but then I decided to keep it. So my name within the team is the fixer, from Pulp Fiction. The fixer. You haven’t seen it? Too bad.
Craig: Yeah. You need to go watch the movie. The fixer was the person who showed up when they had a body, they need to get rid of like, oh, whenever they killed someone.
Miguel Chero: Mr. Wolf.
Craig: Mr. Wolf showed up to fix the problem. Remember the first thing he told him, he’s like, go get me all the cleaning products and Afghan and make some coffee. And they’re like, “What’s the coffee for?” He’s like, “I’m going to drink it.”
Miguel Chero: Like a talk fast, think even faster and like give up the name.
Melissa Way: I mean, that’s about right.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah. Which I don’t drink coffee. But I’m drinking tea now. So I guess that counts.
Craig: Right. So the fixer. Why the fixer?
Kristen Swantek: The fixer because in addition to what Craig mentioned, I handle production. I handle social media. I’m also the “no” to every idea Craig tries to throw at us. So the fixer because when things-
Craig: Go sideways.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah, it goes sideways. There’s a dumpster fire in the background. I’m the person with a little pail of water trying to put it out as best I can. And that can be anything, that can be an episode’s not back on time. We’re missing something. We lost a password to something, heaven forbid.
Craig: Yeah, there is a lot of stuff going on in the scenes like, “Oh, we need to go into Stitcher and do this,” or, “Oh, random data space in speaker or how do we get in,” like people ask us random questions. I can’t find you on Google Play. You remember that one? That one took us like three months to even figure out how do you get into Google Play? And we had to figure that out. And then we hit the submit this form and then they had an email, like so, we spend a lot of time doing that kind of stuff. And I always joke that I basically wrapped the problem around a brick and lob it over the fence, “Hey, Kristen.” Hear the thud.
Melissa Way: It’s why Kristen gets to juggle the hot potato. Like we’re all just throwing things at her like, “This isn’t working.”
Miguel Chero: Yeah. And how long have you been moving, Kristen, Parkour?
Kristen Swantek: Parkour? Oh, I started when I was 15. Because I couldn’t drive yet.
Craig: This is a dovetail with how do we all know each other?
Kristen Swantek: Yes.
Craig: But all right, let’s finish up with the roles, the R-O-L-E-S first.
Melissa Way: My role is kind of several different roles, the original role that I joined the team for was to be the guest advocate is our official title that we don’t really use, except for when we’re talking about official titles. Which-
Craig: When? I’m introducing you to guests, this is Melissa. She’s the guest advocate. She remembers to do everything, because otherwise, I screwed up.
Miguel Chero: What are you on Basecamp? What is your title?
Melissa Way: My unofficial title is the setter upper.
Craig: Why, like what is that? Like it doesn’t makes sense? [crosstalk 00:15:25].
Melissa Way: Because everything that happens, I’m setting up, I set up who we’re talking to, when we’re talking to them, where we’re going next, the calendar of-
Melissa Way: Calendar of who, when, where, what. So I kind of set up a lot of the background stuff, but my role is guest advocate officially is to advocate for the guests. So I talk to the guests, email people say, “Hey, do you want to be on our podcast, we would be really interested in interviewing you,” and then if they say yes, go from there and try to figure out when and how, where that’s all going to come together.
Melissa Way: And then there’s some steps in the process kind of after that where I’m kind of talking with them about what to expect and after we’ve recorded, what the next steps are, I kind of keep people up to date, “Hey, your episode’s coming out soon,” that kind of thing. So I’m the point of contact for the guests and kind of the first and last person they usually talk to.
Craig: And how many active email conversations Do you have going on right now in the email software?
Melissa Way: Well, A lot.
Craig: I think 39. [crosstalk 00:16:28]. I think it’s 39.
Melissa Way: I would have to double check because I just changed, I just started a few more and ended a few and-
Craig: So there’s like 39-
Kristen Swantek: There’s 37, but there’s also eight that have not been claimed by someone yet.
Craig: Oh, wonderful. So [inaudible 00:16:38] that we’re all asleep on, I’m sorry. Yeah, so we do use an actual email, a commercial email solution that lets us all work out of one mailbox, so if you mail, and you walk in the mail list, if you mail email@example.com, it comes in and then we can all see it and then we can like assign it, like Craig needs respond to this or Kristen needs to see this and we can work on them that way. Super, super useful with not using Gmail for our email service. So that leaves you to the ghost or Craig.
Miguel Chero: I listened to the raw audio. [crosstalk 00:17:06].
Craig: Paper Scissors for [crosstalk 00:17:08].
Miguel Chero: Forfeit. Spark. I listen to the raw audios and cut out any of the so’s or like the-
Craig: I see what you did there.
Miguel Chero: … Any kind of like the aha, mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-mm, or just kind of conversation topics that kind of like don’t really flow well together with the guest and make everyone sound as best as possible. But also not like to like structure that it’s kind of like that they know exactly what they were going to say, but like trying to keep the human side of their conversation, that’s my thing on Basecamp, my untitled-
Craig: What is it? What is the-
Miguel Chero: The unofficial title?
Kristen Swantek: Unofficial title, yes.
Miguel Chero: Is cut man Supreme. It comes from like a bunch of different things, I think it comes from How I Met Your Mother.
Craig: Do you know, my mom. You actually do know my mom.
Miguel Chero: I do know your mom, actually, lovely lady. Have you guys seen it. Yeah. What is his name? The Jason Segel character, but he-
Melissa Way: Marshall.
Miguel Chero: Marshall. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he has like, they call them like judge fudge, because he works. He was a judge. But then he got like, towards the end, he became like Supreme Court judge and he’s like, “I’m no longer judge anymore. Now, I’m fudge supreme.” [inaudible 00:18:28] might go well with that, like, [inaudible 00:18:29].
Craig: All right. And then, I mean, my role is pretty obvious. Except it’s not internally. My own title is delusionary is my self chosen title. And that’s more like a warning, you know the little hazard symbol, they put on bio hazards. That’s like caution. So you get these messages. It says like, “We use Basecamp internally, and I go use Basecamp, Basecamp is awesome.” But inside Basecamp, there’s a little, like, get a message and it says who it’s from, and it’s like a picture and then their title’s under there.
Craig: So it’s just like a reminder, everybody, like, “Watch out. This can be completely delusional, but I want to try this.”
Kristen Swantek: No.
Miguel Chero: It’s Kristen ads.
Craig: It’s [crosstalk 00:19:04] people like, “Oh, that’s funny. Like, no, it’s not, that’s really how it works.” It’s such a thing that I come up with so many crazy ideas that sometimes I put a crazy idea out and it starts with, “This is not a discussion,” to make it clear that this is crazy. And we’re doing it. And we’ll get the more that when we talk about remote work and stuff.
Kristen Swantek: I think my favorite is that when you put something and that you start with, talk me out of this idea.
Craig: I just did one of those about, and we need to talk about projects that we didn’t do. And I had an idea, is completely deluded idea. And then I’m like, “Somebody talk me out of this idea.” And they had no problems talking me out of it. They’re like, “This sucks. This is stupid. That won’t work.” And I’m like, “Yeah, that’s a bad idea. Thank you, do we,” but it’s, again, I’m coming back to what I said in the very beginning, it’s until you’ve tried to build something yourself like this at this scale, you have no idea how helpful it is to be able to say to people, “Hey, what does everybody think about this idea?” And have people actually go, “That’s stupid?” “Oh, thank you, because I thought it was awesome. Okay, great. Thank you for letting me not make an ass out of myself in the world.”
Craig: So my job is obviously, this is all started being about interviewing people. That’s how it all started. And so obviously, that’s my role that people have seen or heard most. But my real role behind the scenes is like, I don’t want to say captain of the ship, but like the only person who doesn’t actually have a job, like I don’t, I do a lot of things behind the scenes, like, “Oh, this is behind, or we help me with that.” But if everything is going right, I’m not doing anything other than, “Oh, maybe we should go around the iceberg. Or maybe we should head toward this,” like, really, just to try and figure out what do we want to do to try and create the culture within the group and try and make sure everybody is happy and having fun and blah, blah, blah.
Craig: I don’t mean to diminish like having have a blah, blah, blah, but like so on and so on and so forth. So that’s how I see myself. Yeah, we all met in various ways through Parkour some way somehow, and I believe I first met Miguel, maybe 2012, is either like 2011 or 2012. I’m not exactly sure. At Blake West Scoville Elementary in Brookside, like I went to a parkour class on a Sunday that was run by Lehigh Valley, Parkour, and I showed up, and I was like, “Hey, I want to jump on stuff, basically.” And, like older than everybody and Adam, there were bunch of people there, but basically, Adam, and you, Miguel and Austin and like, Josh, we’re like the four people who were always there, like every class I went to is the same for people.
Craig: And they were the people that created the environment that I really felt like, “Wow, I could, I mean, I can’t do this at all. But I really feel like coming here and failing every week would be tolerated and enjoyed. And I’ll work on being a better human being.” And then that was the environment that you were part of creating. So like, I always felt like I knew you very well, even though we never really like to have your phone number. We never like, I never saw you any time outside the two hours of class. So it took a long time before like somebody said, “Hey, let’s go to a movie.” Or like random things that most people would say, “Oh, I met him at dinner or I met him at this event.” It’s like, “No, we just sweat it [crosstalk 00:21:54].”
Miguel Chero: I think I was like 19 or 20 years old at the time.
Craig: How old were in 2012?, right?
Miguel Chero: Yeah. For real. [inaudible 00:22:02].
Craig: Great. I just did the math, yeah, in 2012 I was not 20 years old, I was not 19. So that’s how I met Miguel. And then anybody else want to do one of the-
Melissa Way: Well, I was going to jump in and say I think Miguel was also the first one that I met because Craig, you and I started training around the same time. But I was training at Kutztown because I was in college and didn’t have a car at the time. So I wasn’t really doing stuff with the rest of the community. But Miguel would come down and train at Kutztown. So we met fairly early on, and I think we probably also met at Kutztown just a little bit later.
Craig: I probably was at a class or something.
Melissa Way: Yeah. And then Kristen and I met a little bit more after I started, like I got a car and-
Craig: We probably met Kristen on the same day.
Melissa Way: No, I don’t think she was there yet.
Kristen Swantek: No, I wasn’t-
Craig: I’m pretty sure I met you-
Kristen Swantek: Because I was late to the party.
Craig: [inaudible 00:22:49] High School. [inaudible 00:22:50] High School?
Kristen Swantek: Yeah. We were doing push ups on the parking lines.
Craig: On the parking lot lines? That was your first class? Wait to get thrown late into the footwork, welcome. I think you brought a friend too, like you bought some soccer with you.
Kristen Swantek: I did bring a friend.
Craig: And I don’t think we’re-
Melissa Way: It’s great.
Kristen Swantek: She was actually there a few times. But yeah.
Miguel Chero: I was going to say we never saw her.
Kristen Swantek: No, no. She back a few times.
Melissa Way: She came back a few times, then she decided to go with like high school sports and I was-
Craig: [inaudible 00:23:13] high school sucks and I’m going with this. Actually, this was called a full mesh. There’s actually like 12s, it’s like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. There’s like nine stories here because the geometry theory, if you have four points on a graph, and you want to draw all the line segments, if I tell three stories about how I met each of the three of you, we’re still missing Kristen’s two stories about how she made and it’s like, “Oh, [inaudible 00:23:37].” Are there any other stories that we missed about how we know each other.
Kristen Swantek: That covers basically it.
Melissa Way: That’s I mean, bottom line Parkour.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah.
Craig: Which is like when I started thinking about, “Hey, I need suckers – , I need help [inaudible 00:23:49]. I need to figure out and my first thought was, “Well, there’s two ways to do this. One, is to find people who have the skills, like find somebody can do audio editing, find somebody who can do this or that.” And my first reaction was, “No, find people who are passionate about the same things.” So first of all, I want to explain all the vocabulary, but also when I say, “Hey, I want to do a interview of people who are movers or people who do Parkour or art du deplacement, all these people that I want to work with, would already know about that.”
Craig: So that was the obvious like, “Hey, who do I know like already know, rather than putting out resumes.” So we have only put out, oh, that’s a good story too, like I’ve said we’ve only ever actually put out like, “We need to hire someone. And that’s how we hired Melissa, and Kristen and I were like, “Oh my God, we completely didn’t think of asking Melissa if she wanted to work on the project.” But to Melissa credit, we had put up a forum that was like do you have a computer and like a couple basic questions, and a lot of people couldn’t even jump through the basic questions. And Melissa dutifully, like, I mean, she could have just walk across the room, and we got our retreat, who would walk across and like, “Hey, could I have the job?” “I don’t know, but oh, my God, I forgot about you. Yes, that’s awesome.”
Craig: But to her credit, she filled out the form and sent it in, and didn’t even like chase it, like the end run. She just like waited and then Kristen messaged me.
Melissa Way: Kind of followed the processes. The great thing-
Craig: I’m reading Kristen’s message. And I’m like, I could walk across the cafeteria and say, “Hey, you want a job?”
Kristen Swantek: The great thing too is she was already working for us just not with us.
Melissa Way: Right. That’s right.
Kristen Swantek: She started off with our first logo.
Craig: Oh, right.
Melissa Way: I originally was brought on to do some design work. But I wasn’t actually brought on, I was just a client.
Craig: Wow. Oh, my God. You know the first sign of old age, right?
Melissa Way: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Craig: First sign of old age, you start to forget things. And then the second sign of old age is, how do you forget.
Miguel Chero: It’s funny because you did that on an episode and you actually forgot. I had forgotten whose episode it was. [crosstalk 00:25:33].
Craig: Did you leave in or cut it out?
Miguel Chero: I left that one in-
Craig: Do you remember who the guest was?
Kristen Swantek: Was it…? Like I just listened to it. It might have been Amos.
Craig: I really feel like we need to play the numbers game.
Melissa Way: Yeah, it might have been Amos.
Craig: And what number was that?
Melissa Way: He’s not out yet.
Craig: [crosstalk 00:25:45].
Melissa Way: That is next week.
Craig: That is next week, like what-
Melissa Way: To where we are now.
Craig: We should know what number it is. It should be-
Melissa Way: It’s 48.
Craig: 48. So you know what it is. So 48 is out by the time people are listening to Episode 50. There’s like this running gag on the team that for some reason, I can’t imagine why. Melissa knows all the numbers and the guests. So it’d be like, I want to mention, “Oh, yeah, that time I was talking to Vito happening.” And [inaudible 00:26:08], “That was Episode 21.” I got it right. I’m always off by one. I wanted to say so, she’s like, “No, that’s either, he’s 21.”
Melissa Way: Well, it’s just funny because Craig will be like, “Oh, you got to go listen to this episode.” And I’ll be like, “Craig, that’s not the episode. You’re telling them the wrong episode. You’re confusing people.”
Craig: That’s my job confusion area, I’m updating it in Basecamp right now.
Miguel Chero: It’s updated every week.
Craig: I thought about doing that just like making spelling errors. And see if he notices. All right, so that was how we all know each other. What else…? On one hand, I want to say let’s unpack how we make a podcast. But I mean, if you’re within the sound of my voice, you really do not want to know, you do not want to know.
Melissa Way: It’s too much. Walk away.
Craig: It is insane.
Melissa Way: Even when we think about it, sometimes we’re like, “Oh, wow.”
Craig: But we try to do it. We try to like sit down, and like, so let’s, and it doesn’t work. Because the beauty of batching work? Well, we have it all broken down into individual steps and processes so that each of us can work on, so if Miguel is doing rough cuts, he can do two or three rough cuts. And that’s what he’s working on for a few days. He doesn’t have to actually maintain the perspective of everything that’s going on. So maybe a fun question would be for the table, for $250. What is something that, [inaudible 00:27:27] there’s no real money in here? What is something that each of us thinks that the listeners might be surprised to learn about the process of creating the podcast? So something that people would be surprised to learn about the process of the podcast.
Melissa Way: About the process as a whole, or just what we do in it? Because that’s like two different questions.
Craig: So I know that you’ve never heard me do an interview. But you can answer the questions any way that you want.
Kristen Swantek: Blue.
Craig: Blue. Okay, so actually, it’s a why. That’s a good question. Why is a lot of this stuff blue? Does anybody else know why a lot of this stuff is blue. I know why. Blue is my favorite color, I wear blue, I wear blue T-shirts. This tablecloth is corn blue. And Tracy was like, “I don’t like it.” I’m like, “I like it. It’s my color, we’re buying it.”
Melissa Way: Well, there’s that. But there’s also like a little bit of like psychological.
Craig: Yeah, but that’s the background in like afterwards like, “Oh, and also psychologically, blue is a common color [crosstalk 00:28:25]. I love blue.
Melissa Way: Because we talked about this when we were talking about like design stuff.
Craig: I love blue.
Melissa Way: Yeah, but that blue, it works. It works.
Craig: Yes. But I love blue, and like, I don’t love like fuchsia or something.
Melissa Way: It would definitely be a different feeling. Yes.
Craig: [inaudible 00:28:38]. Okay, so that was I said the blue. Right. What else?
Kristen Swantek: Yeah, I think how much we do ahead of time and how much we work on at once. So at any given point in time, we’re working on the next eight to 10 episodes. So it’s not just we finished one and then we start this next one.
Kristen Swantek: No, we’re working two to three months in advance of where we are now.
Craig: If we are working two months in advance, Kristen starts to get twitchy [crosstalk 00:29:01]. So this might be fun point to bring up. We have a weekly, we haven’t been doing this super long. But we started a weekly, I call it the roll up message. But it’s kind of like a view from the top and Kristen puts together, I don’t know, you want to describe it?
Kristen Swantek: It’s the next 10 episodes where they are, what dates they’re going to be published at, what I’m waiting for [crosstalk 00:29:20].
Craig: Often in bold and red with italics.
Kristen Swantek: Not that crazy, just folded.
Melissa Way: Unless she’s really-
Kristen Swantek: Unless it’s like-
Melissa Way: … Needs it. In which case, she’ll tag you.
Kristen Swantek: And then just a general overview of like the most current projects and where everything’s at. So if you’re not directly involved with the project, you can still read a quick paragraph and see what’s going on. And if you want to be more involved, or if it’s just like back of your head, and you know what’s going on?
Craig: Yeah, so this is-
Melissa Way: They’re very, very helpful.
Craig: Oh, my goodness, it was… Well, of course-
Melissa Way: I don’t know how we did without them.
Craig: There are so many things like that afterwards, where like, this is a thing that we should have been doing for a long time. Kristen, and I had a discussion around like, “I feel like we’re missing, there’s a thing that we’re not doing that is missing, what’s the whole shape piece in the room.” And then she’s the one that came up with like the format and how we lay it out and what’s in it. And we delete them every week.
Craig: So there’s often little comments that happen underneath and then we’re like, we just clean the slate every week and make a new one. One thing that this is, you can do things that you do that you think people will be surprised by or you can do what I’m about to do, which is say another thing people will be surprised by is that you are the person who decides the ordering of how they get woven together. So how many do we have in the can at the moment? It’s actually hard to tell, but something like that we’re up through 70. So I think this is according number 70.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah. 70.
Melissa Way: This is 70.
Craig: And I have seen projects popping up for 71 and 72.
Kristen Swantek: 71 is the only official one waiting on 72.
Craig: So, 71 has popped up. 72 is like we’re waiting to push the button to make a new project. So internally, we have a completely separate project. We call them the R projects for recording, we have a separate R project, where we track everything about the one thing, it has the raw audio files, it has anything we discuss, it has a whole nine yards. But Kristen wound up chose whatever, [inaudible 00:31:07], the role of weaving it together. So what does that involve?
Kristen Swantek: It’s a little bit of higher level thinking in terms of who the guests are, what they’re talking about, what their background is, you don’t want three gym owners back to back to back, all talking about how they built their gyms, because that can get a little dry and little boring for essentially a month, three weeks that the episodes be spread out about. So I tried to vary it by gender, if I can, or by experience. So someone who’s maybe really into competition and talks about the competitions and then a gym owner, and then maybe just a community member from one of the communities we go to. So I try to vary it, as much as I can to keep the content interesting, but also then trying to make the episodes complement each other.
Craig: Yeah, they have tones like, I’m often surprised. And I’m going to say this is, I mean, obviously Miguel does this, but when they come back and I hear them they pop out in my podcast catcher anomaly, he’s overcast. I don’t know how people do anything other than that, but in overcast, they come out on Wednesday mornings around 10:00 a.m., when they come out, I’m always the one like, “Oh, I forgot all about,” because there’s such a delay, and I feel bad sometimes for the guests. And this is part of the reason why we needed a guest advocate, is because I cannot remember to tell 40 people don’t panic. Like your episode didn’t suck. It was awesome. It’s just not going to come out until August.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah. I think right now, everything we have recorded up to this point will put us through roughly middle of October.
Craig: Yeah. So like we’re cheating on this one, we made a space in the schedule to wedge number 50 in. But that means I was recording. I did recordings in March. Didn’t we do March? Like the ones that come out at 49 are from March?
Melissa Way: Yes.
Craig: So that’s like a slight delay from March to July. And then we did a bunch of recordings in May which are coming out like in July, August and in September. And so, that’s one of the challenges, to me, I see them all, I know that there… I know that I loved it, I know what the guests experience was on the spot, but then we disappear. And it’s like, “Please don’t worry, it really was good.”
Melissa Way: Yeah. Well, and that’s why we have certain processes of like following up with guests and talking about like feedback and what you thought of the process. And also, “Oh, hey, this is when your episodes coming out.” So they’re not like wake up in the morning like, “Oh, I’m talking on this podcast.” And they find out because we like tagged them in social media. So we prefer to try to kind of give you a heads up.
Craig: There are also, all the guests are invited into the Movers Mindset community. Not that it’s a plug to join the Movers Mindset community, but they go into Movers Mindset community where they have early access, so the episodes come out on Friday instead of Wednesday. So you can actually play them a little earlier in there. So they would have a chance to go in there and play it. Not that that’s going to help them, it makes anxious [crosstalk 00:33:41].
Kristen Swantek: By that point, it’s already, it’s going to be published.
Craig: And at that point, the numbering is set too. Is there anything else anyone thinks would surprise the average listener?
Miguel Chero: I don’t if it will surprise them but like, whenever they shout me out or something, like on the recording, or like I’m just thinking of-
Craig: The guests?
Miguel Chero: Yeah, when they guess are like, because they, I guess some of them know me, but like, not all of them do. But so when you talk about Miguel, like, “Who’s Miguel, like Miguel is in the room right now watch you as you speak.”
Craig: It’s not creepy at all.
Miguel Chero: I’m thinking about Hajj at the end of, it wasn’t in the official episode. But you had mentioned me in the beginning episode. And at the end of it, you had mentioned it was like, it was like originally like an hour-and-a-half, like recording. And you were like, “I don’t know who’s going to be listening to this hour and a half recording.” And I just like, “Oh, well. What is this Scottish accent?” [crosstalk 00:34:33]
Craig: … Miguel would be listening.
Miguel Chero: Miguel will be listening, cheers mate, and like. That was just [inaudible 00:34:43] and dyingfor a while. And so it’s cool if you get the opportunity to like shout me out or anything, I will always be listening. Anything you say to me, I will hear.
Craig: You know you could reach out, I know you know. Absolutely. Anything else spring to mind.
Melissa Way: I think something people would be surprised by is how many times like we basically play like racquetball or I don’t know, volleyball with each episode.
Melissa Way: Hot potato.
Craig: It’s like what are you talking about, we don’t play volleyball, racquetball, what…? I get it now, sorry.
Melissa Way: We have a club. No, just kidding. [crosstalk 00:35:16] No, like with each episode, in order for it to get published, we go through, so like, Craig does the recording. And I’m usually there for the recording sitting in the corner, like quietly typing.
Craig: I’m laughing, she actually doesn’t sit in the corner, she sits, like there’s three people at the table, anyway, keep going.
Miguel Chero: The little gillum.
Melissa Way: Yes. Yes. I’m just like in the room. But taking notes of what’s getting talked about, so that Miguel can read over and later. But like, once it’s uploaded to Basecamp, then like Miguel has access to it. And he cuts it down. And like it just gets passed back and forth for so many different reasons. For so many different pieces.
Craig: Yeah. There’s probably 50 check boxes, I should know becaus I wrote them all. There’s probably 50 check boxes. So in the project management system, we’d say, “Make a new project,” and it fills it all in with these unmarked boxes. And there will be like 50 of them. And one of them will be like, like one check boxes, send this out for the final. So we actually send them out for the final audio edit, send this out is like one checkbox. And that’s like a whole outside service that does it. And then there’s like another checkbox that says send it out for transcription or publish it on Tuesday or a follow up.
Craig: And it’s just there’s all these things. And I’m process freak. And it just turns out that when you do it that way, I’ve always called it pivoting. So if you think about all these parallel, like rivers of things you’re trying to accomplish, what you want to able to do is pivot this visually, so that you can cut across all the streams, and find where all the emails I need to send because Melissa needs to do this, like I need to send 12 emails today, where are they, so I try and find all the email things and then do all my email work. Or let’s go here and do a bunch of recording or let’s go here. And Miguel can do I’m doing this rough cut, this rough cut, or that rough cut. So at first, I know there was a lot of like, “Craig, this is ridiculous. This process is over bill, what are you doing to us? No, no, no.” And now it’s like, “Yeah, did we do this before?”
Melissa Way: Right? Well, it’s really important just because of how much necessarily within the process, we pass it back and forth. Like it’s just like, “Okay, I know these things need to happen before I can do the piece of it that I need to do.” So I’m like, “Okay, Kristen go.”
Miguel Chero: Yeah. I was going to say how many times do you think it’s been, like a guest will be passed on between us? That sounds pretty bad. But like [crosstalk 00:37:23].
Craig: … Changed hands 100 times because, I’m not exaggerating. Because if you start from the beginning, we’re not doing this. If you start from the beginning. It’s like hey, I want to interview Bob and then somebody has to go find how to get, does anyone have contact info for Bob. And then we have to like, those are like 17 steps just before I even press record. And yeah, don’t remind me that time I didn’t press record. So, rule number zero about podcasting is always press record. I once failed the press record. That was the very first episode with Adam. And then I went 30 minutes and I said, “Hey, remember when I asked if you want to be guinea pig, because I was going to screw it up.” He’s like, “Yeah,” I’m like, “I forgot the press record.”
Melissa Way: That’s why he was the first one.
Craig: Yes. But rule number one is don’t let the guests touch the mic. Where was I going with this? I don’t remember. Moving on.
Kristen Swantek: You were talking about processifying.
Craig: Move on. Because there’s a lot of things talk about, I think we should talk about remote work.
Kristen Swantek: Well that leads right into it, because, I mean, the process could [crosstalk 00:38:20] nicely done.
Melissa Way: It’s like you do this for a living [crosstalk 00:38:25].
Miguel Chero: You know what the F you’re doing.
Craig: Bro, you can’t say the F word.
Kristen Swantek: Explicit.
Melissa Way: Mark the check box.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah, but-
Craig: That was a whole discussion. What exactly qualifies. What make… There’s a checkbox for market, set an explicit marker in the episode.
Kristen Swantek: The answer is there is no answer.
Craig: There is no answer. Yeah. Usually, if there’s one F bomb, we might not press the checkbox, if there’s a couple F bombs, or if they’re really good stories about really crazy stuff [inaudible 00:38:52], that story might traumatize small children, we’re calling this explicit.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah. It’s either content or language but it’s like, where do we draw the line with language it how many swears constitute explicit.
Craig: I personally think that if, I think the guests should treat it as a badge of honor if Movers Mindset gave you red E, yes, there aren’t many red Es in the podcast, I think we are up to two, and there’s like one coming out in the future that [crosstalk 00:39:17].
Miguel Chero: Straight on Samuel L. Jackson throughout the whole thing.
Craig: Do they speak English and what?
Melissa Way: Wait, wait, wait, bonus points if listeners can find all of those Es and mail us, call some communication here.
Craig: I don’t know if I can do them all.
Melissa Way: I can think of two that I know for sure are out. One that I know for sure is coming. And I’m thinking I’m missing another one.
Craig: What do they get if they can find all three of these? Our undying, I almost said our dying gratitude, our undying gratitude. Where was I going with this? I was going to ask.
Melissa Way: Remote work.
Craig: Oh, remote work.
Melissa Way: Yeah.
Miguel Chero: Remote controls.
Craig: I wish it was remote control, “Come one. Go faster. Go faster.” That’s not true. Does anyone want to jump in about remote work?
Kristen Swantek: Yeah, I think I have a unique experience with remote work because for anyone, most people who don’t know who I am, I’d recently graduated college. So I was away.
Kristen Swantek: I was at college for two years. And it was three hours away from here. When I started before college, working just doing audio markups. And then Craig messaged me, I stopped and one summer he was like, “Hey, you want to-“
Craig: You want do something for money, I got it.”
Kristen Swantek: Yeah. So I started even with my current position while I was away, so I didn’t really have contact, physical contact with anyone for a year, two years, something in there.
Craig: July 3rd, July 3rd. Is it July 3rd. [crosstalk 00:40:52].
Kristen Swantek: No, it’s 2nd.
Craig: July 3rd is your, is the, I discovered the date on your W 900. Is like July 3 is the paperwork date, one year, congratulations. I don’t know what you were thinking?
Kristen Swantek: I was in college, I was broke.
Craig: Remote work.
Kristen Swantek: Remote work. Yes. So that was something that’s really unique for me is that now obviously, I’m back home. So I can work with everyone in person, if need be. But it really worked well. And that was something I was initially concerned about is that I call Craig once a week to talk for half an hour. And how am I going to make this all work? Because I’m so far away and everyone else is in the same area and can communicate with each other? Or they go to the same Parkour classes every week, and how am I going to stay in touch. But it really wasn’t a problem, which I think is nice, especially now we started doing weekly team meetings. So even if we don’t see each other every single week, we see each other every single week, and it’s-
Craig: Video calls.
Kristen Swantek: Video calls. Yeah. And I think it’s really nice we kind of builds a little community within Movers Mindset outside of our Parkour community. And we’re able to do that with people who can’t be here and physically in person every day. So I like remote.
Miguel Chero: Yeah, that’s more of a thing now, like we’re working from home. More of a the thing like this day and age, trying to not like way back, like-
Craig: When I invented the internet.
Miguel Chero: Yeah.
Craig: We didn’t have remote work, like there wasn’t like, dial up was slow.
Miguel Chero: I was going to say that the depression era was tough.
Craig: We are currently in the depression era.
Melissa Way: Along the lines of a Kristen was saying, so having that weekly meeting of like the whole team, that’s relatively new for us. And it’s-
Craig: I’m laughing because it bombed up at eight o’clock in the morning. And it’s, what a bunch of, I’m like, “I have been up for three hours at eight o’clock, what’s the matter with you people?”
Melissa Way: But I think it was a really important move. And it was a long time coming because it took us kind of a while to figure out. And we went through iterations of kind of how we were working together in the way that we were working as a team. And it took us a while to kind of hit that stride. But I think the full team kind of weekly calls are really important part of it, because now we are starting to have that community sense and kind of creating that interaction that sometimes can be tricky to get when you’re working remotely.
Melissa Way: But it’s really important for the team to kind of have that. So it’s not just like, “Oh, I’m sending you a message about this thing and this thing,” it’s like actually face-to-face time, work through stuff a lot faster.
Craig: Yeah, so maybe we should unpack a little bit. So the all hands meeting is, there’s normally, normally there’s six of us on the call, math thing, math thing mapping fail, at two. So normally, there’s six of us on the call. And the idea is not, it’s not supposed to be what they would call a stand up meeting, where everybody stands up and says, “This is, this is,” it’s not like everybody gets called in the carpet. The idea is just whatever you have on your mind, you want to talk about. And the call currently runs for 20 minutes, if you’re going to do this, I recommend you do 20 minutes is too short.
Craig: But because of various scheduling, it was like nobody get six people at the same time as tough. We wind up from 8:00 to 8:20 on weekday morning. And the idea was to just get together and whatever you wanted to bring up. So it’s actually a couple of has been really helpful. So when Melissa got married, congratulations.
Melissa Way: Thank you. Thank you.
Craig: Melissa got married, she’s like, Okay, I need like, could I have a week off. But finally, please. So we had a call where it was. All right, so Miguel is going to be away for a week, including both of the bookend weekends. And then immediately after that, Melissa goes away for a week. So beforehand, we had this call, like, what do we need to get done? And then because we have like an actual message, Kristen goes, “Well, what we literally need is we need this, this,” and like there were like four things.
Craig: And it really helped because everybody could go, “Yes, there’s 200 things to do. But we need to get these four done.” So like Melissa banged out those two and ago banged out those two, and then it was like there weren’t any fires. And I mean, you guys came back respectively back from your trips, and then we have a meeting and it’s like, “Okay, what did I miss?” I’m like, “Well, I mean a lot of play, you didn’t miss, like the chatter, chatter, but nothing’s on fire. Like we now return you to regular scheduled chaos, like there’s nothing special going on, like,” so that I think really surprised me how I mean, that was my hope that we would be able to coordinate as a team and not have people panicking or running around, which makes me think of the pull versus push work idea.
Melissa Way: Well, before you move-
Craig: [crosstalk 00:45:15].
Melissa Way: Before you move on to that, I just wanted to say, part of the working as a team is just having a group schedule. So we had switched over to weekly publications in March of this year, which was actually a month earlier than we were initially planning to.
Craig: I said, at the beginning of the year, we are switching to weekly publications on April 1st, this is not a joke.
Melissa Way: And this was at the point in time where we had no final editing process.
Craig: Yeah, we actually could not-
Miguel Chero: Yeah, in the middle of-
Craig: We literally could not put an episode out because we had a key piece of the puzzle missing. And I’m like, “All right. Let’s just fix that problem, and never going to do this.”
Kristen Swantek: Yeah. I was standing next to a dumpster fire with a little bucket and he used to [inaudible 00:45:54] like, “Here’s eight more dumpsters. Get ready.”
Craig: Yes, this is delusionary, is like, but to your credit, we began publishing weekly on March 1st, because we had solved the one, I have notes that say, “Give Kristen problems sooner,” like because I was trying to find a replacement editing solution I gave it to her she was done in like two days. So like she had solved that problem and then put things back together. And then it was like, “Wow, now we can go like three times,” that the way we were doing it wasn’t anything wrong with, it was just it was one person and he just couldn’t go as fast as we needed to go. So the new group is a company, and they can basically crank them out. So we like fixed that problem, switched to weekly, and it was like, “Let’s go to weekly.”
Melissa Way: Well, and that gave us the ability from there. So that’s part of why we needed our like weekly roll up of what all was happening because I’m already staying on top of things. And that’s a lot easier for us to kind of pass around in terms of scheduling. So part of what makes it work so well is some of the things we can schedule in advance. So in addition to the guest stuff that I do, I also kind of push the buttons to make it go public and do that final publishing piece. But I can schedule that in advance. So as long as we kind of like worked out ahead of time, it was like, “Okay, I need this, this and this by this date. And then I can set that and nobody has to worry about it. And it’s all taken care of.”
Craig: Yeah. I think actually an episode went to the movies, mindset community, Friday, the day before you got married. And I was like, “There it is. Look at that.” I know you’re not thinking about it at all. But it like worked perfectly.
Melissa Way: Yeah. That was like a week in advance. I was like, “So here’s the things I need from everybody to schedule in advance,” and worked out really beautifully.
Miguel Chero: Yeah, really unique atmosphere, because I’m going, like, I’m not saying not in business, but like working for a close friend of mine. But he’s also my boss, like [crosstalk 00:47:30], working for this guy.
Melissa Way: Working for the man.
Miguel Chero: Oh, yeah. But like, because I’m friends with all of you. And we’re all working together and getting paid. And it’s different than like clocking in at Home Depot.
Craig: Good. I hope it’s better than working at home depot.
Miguel Chero: Way, way, way better. Stand on concrete all day. Sitting outside selling Christmas trees.
Craig: Oh, that’s rough.
Miguel Chero: [inaudible 00:48:02] was my little space heater, that box, that was me for like a year.
Craig: Oh, men.
Kristen Swantek: And going off with that. I think it also helps in terms of just scheduling and working remotely, that we’re all passionate about the project both in general and also our individual pieces. Craig, shout out you has been very good at catering to what we’re good at and what we like doing. So I mentioned like, initially, I started off at audio. Sorry, Miguel, I don’t like editing, it’s so boring.
Miguel Chero: Really? That didn’t go well.
Craig: Bad, bad mojo, bad.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah. I was marking like, squeaky door, here. Curse word, here. And it was…
Craig: The process. Yes.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah. But now we all, our respective pieces are things that we generally enjoy doing and makes us want to log on to Basecamp and want to work which is not punching the clock.
Craig: I feel like we should I feel like we should talk about, I always call it work context. So I mean, I know that some of the answers here. So I’m like begging the question, which is that when you are working remotely, you begin to have what was called the pajama problem, which is like you don’t actually work in pajamas, we don’t care, and you can do anything, anytime, anywhere. And that it can be a little tricky to stay on task. But then once things are organized like this, you can just do whatever you want, whenever you want. And I’m just wondering if you guys found that challenging or how that worked out. I’ve been doing that kind of work for a long time. I’ve always worked for myself,
Melissa Way: I think it’s really interesting, just in terms of, I’ve never had a job like this where I’m not like physically going to work. And it’s like, okay, when you’re at work, you’re working, you have the option to like something comes up. And it’s like, “Oh, I could go take care of this.” But it’s like, “Okay, I also have these five things that need to get done today for publication or, like, I have to send these emails,” and so kind of trying to find that balance is interesting.
Melissa Way: You always discuss work life balance, right and even when you have a like “Physical day job,” but it’s different when it’s like your day job is kind of amorphous. And you’re like, “I could do my day job at night, I could do my job from two o’clock in the morning to four o’clock in the morning, if I really wanted to,” like, doesn’t really matter. So it changes how the balance is, I feel like, at least for me, it’s been a learning curve of the best way to balance it because it’s a lot more freedom. It’s not like, okay, this is blocked out time for work. This is blocked out time for life. And I have to figure out what I’m going to do in the lifetime versus the work time. It’s all kind of one and I can move pieces around. So I found that definitely something interesting that I’m also definitely still working on, like I have to, this is not to say that I have any answers.
Craig: Interesting good or interesting bad?
Melissa Way: No, it’s been really good. It’s just very different from any way of working that I’ve yet done. Like I’ve also never done as much work like sitting in front of a computer. So most of my jobs have been in like childcare and summer camp and that kind of thing. Which is like pretty active, like chasing kids around, trying to get a group of 30 kids to go do the thing they’re supposed do at the correct time.
Melissa Way: So it’s like very little freedom. And now, it’s like, “Oh, I can take my computer with me and go wherever I want to do this, or do this right now and do this another day or wait until eight o’clock tonight and do this.” So as I said, it’s certainly something I’m still working on figuring out and maybe I don’t know that I ever will figure it out.
Craig: Is that may have any tips for-
Kristen Swantek: I was going to say contrastingly, like I came right from college, I started while I was in college, and I, like a third or so of my classes at any given time, we’re online with that very, like, this project is due on this date. Yeah, here’s everything else that has to get done with tentative dates, I had one class who’s like, “I put dates up, but like, really, as long as you get it done by the end of the semester, I don’t care when you do it.” [crosstalk 00:51:48].
Kristen Swantek: So I was doing that. And I also had another job that was remote work. I was a research assistant. So I was just doing research online, from my computer, from my couch, in my apartment. So I’ve always just like, I don’t want to say have any tips, because that’s that kind of work comes naturally to me where I’m like, I could watch TV right now and get sucked into six hours of Netflix. Or I could have my laptop and open Basecamp and work on something that just needs to get done. Right. So I was just kind of-
Craig: Maybe the key there was like, there’s like the difference. I mean, there’s good stuff on Netflix, don’t get me wrong. But maybe the key there is that when you’re thinking, “Well, if I go open a Basecamp, I can go work on, I want to hear so and so’s episode, or give them a chance to finish.” I mean, we do a lot of things that are just like painful, like, let’s argue over this. Like it isn’t all roses and champagne. But I think knowing that when you know want to go Basecamp, it’s the fun job, like.
Melissa Way: Right. Well, it is also, though, it’s fun work. And being able to do something that I’m really interested in is like huge, but it’s also like working remotely. And it’s not as social. Now, we’re like working on processes to kind of change that. But like, originally, it started out being a lot less social and lot, like,” Okay, I’m on the computer doing this thing that maybe somebody’s-“
Craig: Taking boxes, yeah.
Melissa Way: … “like, oh, that box is checked. And now like Craig and Kristen, know that I did this and on to the next step.” So like kind of adjusting to the social aspect. And even the physical aspect of like, some of it is like emails, and I’m just like, I have to sit down in front of a computer and do it. So adjusting to that and trying to figure out like, “Oh, I’m not just like walking around all day,” is different.
Miguel Chero: Yeah. For me, like it feels really good to finish something. And then it’s kind of making something easier and easier work for somebody else. Like for example, Kristen’s smiling.
Craig: Kristen is side eyeing you, like, “Where is he going with this?”
Miguel Chero: Like, whenever I finished a rough cut, and it’s kind of nice to just send it to Kristen. And then she needs the cue notes or whatever. And I get those done. And it just feels good. Because I know now that she has what she has what she needs-
Craig: Right. Take them on to the next person.
Miguel Chero: … Yeah. To complete whatever the next step is, which is hundreds of other, we’re not going to like too much… Yeah.
Melissa Way: That brings us to like the pushing and pulling work, because we kind of, it’s like the pushing and pulling each other in a sense. Do you want to go into that since you’re the kind of mastermind behind that, the delusionary?
Craig: I was just going to be quiet and see who was going to jump on the, didn’t want to go in it, because nobody else saw the gesture. Okay, so I guess it’s my fault. When I-
Kristen Swantek: Correct.
Craig: So I’m like a systems builder by nature. I don’t just mean like physical software or computer systems. I mean, I inherently see things as solutions that, like shoveling the driveway, [inaudible 00:54:36] I’ll start shoveling until it stops snowing, unless you happen to know that you know, like, I’m always thinking like, “What’s the steady state of this? What does this look like when it’s up and running and working? How do we get it up to speed? What’s the mess that we left behind?” And that’s the way I just think about things.
Craig: So when I first started doing all this, it was all in my head. So I always knew what to do next. But then when I tried to bring people on, it was, “All right, I have to start writing this down. Sort of making lists.” As soon as you make a list, then it’s who is doing what on the list. So the first instinct that I had, and I think so far, I’ve seen everybody else have the same instinct. You look through 60 projects in the project management system, and you spot things like, “Oh, this rough cut should be done. I wonder if Miguel knows about this yet, like, because there’s no way to tell that he’s read it or looked at it. So I’ll put them on it like because there isn’t a lot of security, that project managed system lets you do whatever you want plenty of rope.”
Craig: So I would be like, “Oh, well, I’ll just assign Miguel to the next rough cut. Because this episode’s next, then I must do the second one too [inaudible 00:55:33],” and I’d go through. And then we were all doing this, we would be adding each other like, well, this is in Kristen’s wheelhouse. This is in Craig’s wheelhouse. And then on the other side of the Basecamp system, you can see your own assignments. So you can go, “What’s on my assignments,” it’d be like this six page report, and it’s, everybody is struggling, it’s in order of the projects, it’s not an order of what has to be done.
Craig: So then we’re like, “Oh, let’s put artificial due dates on things to sort,” and the conclusion that I came to, I forget where I first read this, it’s not, I didn’t make this up. But the idea is, everybody should know, [inaudible 00:56:03] our team does know what they’re responsible for. So like, Miguel’s not going to forget a rough cut. And if he does, somebody will, like, “Hey, did you,” like, it gets caught, like, there’s plenty of space for us to catch mistakes.
Craig: So pushing work toward people tends to make people go heads down and just do the work. So if you know that everybody else is assigning things to you, you can just start at the front and pick them off. But if you don’t do that, as a team, and you let people pull work towards themselves, then you’re forcing them to operate at another level, there’s the heads down, which is good, the heads down doing layer, but then you’re forced to think, to act, to interact with the team, at a higher level, where you have to look across the whole picture, you have to, and this is when, we need like a weekly message, because I have no clue what’s going on. And that’s when we said as soon as we switch to pulling work, we’re like, “Oh, boy, we need a weekly roll up.” And that’s where that came up.
Melissa Way: And it’s huge. It makes a huge difference to have that globalized view because then, I can look at, “Oh, these, these are the ones that need to be done next and like, this is where the status is,” so we can all kind of look at that and be like, “Now I know exactly what I need to pull for this week.”
Craig: Right. Deep in there.
Miguel Chero: Yeah. It really helped there. Really helped like for me, because I know this is one of the things for me was a struggle was kind of empathizing with my co workers. Like, what do they need from me? What can I be doing better? What can I be doing that’s more structured for them to see, like, because I know, literally, and more so, in the beginning, a ghost actually [inaudible 00:57:30] really didn’t do anything, things just popped up, I just kind of threw things out there. That’s that was my nature. And I was wasn’t really aware of that.
Craig: It’s really tricky. Because if everybody’s point of view is by definition, one’s own point of view. So if you have a checkbox that’s assigned to you, you know about it, that’s on like, you can see it, but everybody else is like, “Has he seen it, I mean, I put his name on it. But he didn’t like, send me a message or say thanks for putting me on the checkbox.” Like, it’s really, you have to remember when you’re working remotely, that the people can only see whatever it is that you’re actively doing.
Craig: So by adding this idea of everybody pulls work toward themselves, it actually adds another thing that you’re actively doing. So Tuesday afternoon, all of a sudden, I noticed Miguel has put his name on three check boxes. It’s like, “Oh, I know exactly what he’s working on. He’s working on those three.” And like Kristen’s like sigh of relief? Like, yes, he’s working on [crosstalk 00:58:24], it’s not because any of us screw up, it’s just because Kristen’s the one who’s responsible for, although we should talk about what happens when we drop stuff. So Kristen is responsible for making sure that all those pieces come together.
Miguel Chero: Yeah. It’s like the Facebook Messenger, like when you send a message to somebody, but like, you don’t actually see if they read it or not.
Craig: Yeah. Like, did that go through, what’s happening with that?
Melissa Way: Right. Well, and the other thing is, we’re so far ahead now. And we have so many projects going at once, if you tried to actually assign everything that each of us needs to do, it would be just like lists for days, it’d be like, I don’t even know what’s happening. Like, it’d be so much. So it has to be like, I’m prioritizing these things, because that’s what needs to happen next.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah. And also going back to like, how the episode passes hands, how many times, if I put my name on everything that’s out there, I can’t do everything that’s out there, because I’m waiting for other people to do what they need to do first. So if I went in and saw my assignments, I can do three of them. And the other 50 waiting.
Melissa Way: Right, right. It’s like, “Oh, that episode, that one doesn’t even have a number yet. We don’t know when it’s coming out. Like there’s no reason my name needs to be on that.”
Craig: So it sounds we have check boxes where we’re not sure. And like, yes, it’s all about the check boxes. But sometimes, we’ll find something we’re not quite sure. Like it can happen with a guest photo if we’re waiting for something or it’s a million questions. And now what happens instead of just like, “Oh, this is important, it needs to get done. I’ll put Melissa’s name on it.” Now, what happens is a little comment, like, “Hey, where are we with this?” And then Melissa will chime in. Yeah, I’m trying to get someone’s just… And a little conversation will break out.
Craig: So the other thing that happened was, it forced each of us not only to be more active by pulling work, but it also forced us to think about why isn’t their name on this yet, because it’s in their wheelhouse. And they if they had seen this, they would have put their name on it. So it forces us to actually think more, and then it actually forced us we all wound up interacting more. So I wasn’t even aiming for more team.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah, discussions were happening.
Craig: Yeah. So all these discussions sprung up and everybody got over like the fear of pressing sand on the commenting. And there’s an instant message thing inside the project manager. So it really, a lot of things dovetailed together, when we started pulling work, although it was like, that was one of those messages started with the following is not a discussion. We are switching from the way that we all love to do it to this thing you are not going to like, but you’re going to like it. And it took us many weeks till everybody was on board.
Melissa Way: But it’s just like with any change. Anything that we change is always like, “Oh,” because I mean, we do constantly change things. It’s like, “Oh, we’ve gotten this thing to work really well. How can we make it better now?”
Craig: That’s what I’m always doing. If I spot somebody comfortable, I walk up to you [inaudible 01:00:55] and 12 foam balls that just fit in the box, you’re happy, you can do all your tasks, I woke up, oh, you look happy. Here’s a ball. Literally, if I spot you comfortable, and you’re not like, “What do I do now? Like, here’s another ball,” and then it’s up to you to either give me back one of the ones in the boxes? Or better yet figure out how we can stop doing that entirely? Or do we need this piece? Can I hand it to somebody else? So it does, like the craziness that I introduce, I mean, I am that way naturally. But it it actually works well, because it forces us all to always adapt. I mean, what’s lies outside your comfort zone?
Miguel Chero: Totally two different spheres.
Miguel Chero: It’s really two different spheres like working individually and just like working on myself, like what I need to do and stuff like that. But it’s also something else to be working on a team. And like letting people know what I’m up to and like, helping making their lives easier as well, like…
Melissa Way: Especially when what we do is so interconnected, it’s like, I need to know, like we each need to know what everybody else is doing.
Craig: I was going to talk about one more stuff falls on the floor.
Kristen Swantek: Yay.
Craig: So I tell everybody, and I hope everybody out there gets this from wherever you work with. If you’re not making mistakes, like regularly, like maybe you want to 5, 20% of the time, if you don’t make mistakes, you’re not like, what are you doing, you could be replaced by a program, if you can, if you’re doing it perfectly all the time, you’re not being challenged, you’re not growing, you should always be having things that are challenging you or problems you have to solve.
Craig: So I think it’s really an important part of things not uncomfortable like, “I don’t want to do this,” but like, “Oh, this is different. Why are we adding this step?” And a lot of times we pivot things, we like figure out something new to do. And then we realize, “Oh, we can use that over here too.” So like we do one unit of work and then find three things to do with it. Of course, that pays off.
Miguel Chero: Yeah, then get forced to think about just outside of my area.
Kristen Swantek: I think it’s also important to note going off of letting things fall on the floor is that every other job I’ve had is something fell on the floor. They’d be screaming or yelling or what did you do, why did you do this? And I remember back in December, January, when we lost our audio editor, it was like, “We’re not publishing. We haven’t published, I work so hard to get us on a bi weekly publication schedule. Now what do we do?” Craig was like, “That’s fine.”
Craig: This is an emergency, dial 911.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah. So that’s something I think that’s also really unique is that we’re allowed to fail and encouraged to fail. And I’ve never had any other job have had close to 10 jobs now.
Craig: Well, one of the fun questions is, what’s a mistake you’ve made recently?
Kristen Swantek: I accidentally broke the website for like five minutes.
Melissa Way: Oh, nice.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah, that was a good one. That was a panic message to Craig. What did I do?
Melissa Way: This is one, if I’m doing publication too fast, I sometimes forget to change the links. So it’s in the thing that goes to the podcast players is supposed to link back to the website. And if I go too fast, I forget because I have to like manually switch that out. And then it’s like, the link doesn’t work. It doesn’t go anywhere. Because it’s just like, there’s supposed to be a number on the end that leads to the episodes, Craig’s like, “Hey, I can’t get to the thing.” And I’m like, “There was one I messed up the URL on the website. And then it led to nowhere.
Craig: Well, but it’s like a million little teeny details. Like it’s not, we didn’t talk about SOPs yet.
Kristen Swantek: No. No, we didn’t.
Craig: But Miguel, you’re not getting off the hooks, so what mistakes have you made? I trying to think of onew, I’m perfect, I can’t think of a single mistake.
Miguel Chero: I think-
Craig: I’ll answer you [inaudible 01:04:16].
Miguel Chero: I think I uploaded a rough cut that was actually 30 minutes, but it turned out to be like an hour and 15 minutes. Because there’s like one clip way, way, way at the end. So there’s just [inaudible 01:04:29].
Craig: So, there’s a bit of a pregnant pause here for the answer, 45 minutes.
Kristen Swantek: That’s amazing.
Miguel Chero: Yeah. 45 minute pregnant pause.
Craig: And what happened? Whoever listened who it was like, Kristen [inaudible 01:04:40], she’s like, “What is this pause in here?”
Kristen Swantek: I’m like, “Did my headphones break?”
Craig: This file is… And Miguel goes, “Oops, re export, upload. [inaudible 01:04:51].” I mean, I think really everybody being acclimated to mistakes is, really makes it, I mean, we’re not making medical equipment. We’re not working in an environment where accidents are… It’s not even melted ice cream. It’s just bits were pushing around. So I mean, internally, I still panic, I make a mistake. I’m like, “Oh my god,” or I see like the website broken, [inaudible 01:05:07].
Craig: But I worked really hard to be like, “Whoa, oh, yeah, that’s easy to fix. Kristen.” I try to rein it in. Which is actually good for me to like, try and control the urge to have everything be perfect, though. Like, let things be, oh, spelling error, I don’t care, we move on. So it’s really, perfect is the enemy of good. And we want to, I think as a team, we definitely, I don’t want to say we really avoid perfect. And I think that we don’t, we don’t over stress on like, everything has to be perfect. Every single-
Kristen Swantek: Right. We don’t put perfect on a pedestal.
Craig: Yeah. There’s a cat in the background, we have to kill ourselves trying to edit that, I was like, “No, I mean, these are called field recordings, were recording not a Sound Studio.” So there’s always going to be different, I call them afflictions, little sounds or things.
Miguel Chero: I think that really fits with the style of how you interview the guests. It’s not like trying to be the most perfect, like structured. But it’s just [crosstalk 01:05:53]. But it’s organic, though. It’s real.
Melissa Way: Well, and that’s what makes it work. And even in terms of like us as a team, like big credit to you Craig because I know like we’ve gone, “No, no, no, don’t look at me like that.” For listeners, Craig’s like, “Oh, no.” But he’s put a lot of like time and effort and study even into like, management styles. It’s like, “Oh, we’ve tried this.” And we’re like, “We don’t know if that’s working.” So like building the culture and the way that we work and kind of keeping our well-oiled machine, well-oiled.It is now, it is now, it is now, you’re laughing, but it is, is like also a credit to Craig like working on his own management style.
Miguel Chero: Yeah, just always on the grind every day, just trying to like-
Kristen Swantek: In Basecamp at 6:30 in the morning.
Craig: That’s because I wait an hour before I get in Basecamp [inaudible 01:06:41].
Miguel Chero: But like really working on the grind of just trying to cause, just start discussions with the community, like what everybody like-
Craig: Yeah, the outside community.
Miguel Chero: Like everybody just starting discussion and just connection with each other, because everyone has so much, everyone has… Everybody wants to be heard.
Craig: Yeah. Everybody has a story, all the guests in the future. Everybody says, “I don’t have anything to talk about,” I’m like, I mean, the people who I thought were going to be good guests have come out to be awesome guests, the people that I thought would be awesome guests, I mean, it’s just, it’s always better than I expect. It’s always off the chart. And that’s not me. I mean, I am the person who shows up, like goes to all the work to get on the plane or whatever, and show up at the microphones. But I’m not, I’m actually not the one that people are listening to, you’re really listening to the guests. And I’m sort of like the sock puppet that I played the part of the people listening outside, but it’s really the guests that people want to hear.
Craig: And it really a huge part of what we do. And I forget what it was called, it was like the Melissa and Craig road show. I have like a rule, I don’t do interviews without Melissa, it’s like not a thing, takes two people to be able to do it. And there’s there’s just so much that we realized after the fact, like you know what, when there’s an extra person in the room, it makes it so that the different points of time I have like set gear, or Melissa’s got typing to do. And it lets us always keep the guests in the foreground of like that the center of attention, even when one of us has to like work.
Craig: So I used to go, and it’d be like, I swear I’m listening to you, when I’m completely focused on putting gear together. And it changes the dynamic, it makes the guests more comfortable. Because there’s, we always can, we can always be like there for them to talk to, we’re always present. We go to great lengths, like we organize, I mean, like I show up at an Airbnb and I rearrange rooms and move like rugs and like the guest shows up, like this is really nice. And I’m like, “Yeah-“
Melissa Way: We have a stop short of buying furniture.
Craig: Yes, I actually, I didn’t do it. But well, the furniture store was across the street from the Airbnb. If that hadn’t been, it was like one of those upscale, stupidly expensive furniture stores. The Airbnb didn’t have a coffee table. And now, I’m from America, we don’t always put coffee on. But there’s got to be a table in the middle of the room, that didn’t have a coffee table. And I was like, “There’s a furniture down the street, I’m going to be here for a week, I could go buy a coffee table,” I thought that it was like really expensive.
Craig: But we do, like I do things like letting out some of the secrets. But we’ll rearrange the room so that when the guests walk in, they don’t have like a chair pulled out with a microphone, like sit here for your execution. It’s like, the room is setup. So you free to like go wherever you want. And then in England, I’ve actually bought tea, like why would I have to in the house, but I bought tea so that the, like they were all surprised, every single one of the guests, I said, “Would you like a cup of tea?” And they’re like, and that’d be like whatever it was it was proper, the standard British tea-
Kristen Swantek: English breakfast.
Craig: No, it wasn’t English breakfast. It was like, whatever. It was like a actual real tea. Yeah. And I was like, I have, and like, I [inaudible 01:09:24] and I have decaf. And they would just look at me like, yeah I’ll take a cup of tea, like it, but just, I mean, it’s like, $2 to go to the, I had to go to the store anyway. But to just think like, “What would this guest and, if you’re badgering guess, what would these guests want?” Or when I got there, “Where’s the coffee shop with the chocolate Guinness cake. Where’s the café?” I found the cafe around the corner.
Craig: And then we had one guest. We were talking for like 10 minutes. And I’m thinking, we really need coffee. This guest clearly needs a cup of coffee. And I was like, “[inaudible 01:09:52] to know,” and we like went for coffee. So just all these things. And it’s not just me. It’s like the way that Melissa writes the emails and the way that Miguel thinks, “That should be cut out or this should be kept in, or,” there’s just so much that goes into it. But like the magic is between record and stop. Like we do so much to be able to like press record, but anyway, I’m off at a tangent.
Craig: So what mistakes have I made? I wasn’t actually going to like fly away. What mistakes Have I made recently? Okay, I have to be careful because I don’t want to name drop. But there are some people on the team who I tend to push too hard. So everybody on the team is different. And it’s always challenging to figure out like, what’s the carrot? What’s the stick? What kind of work excites them? What kind of work, we probably should talk about side projects too. What kind of work would they be interested in working on? And some people I push too hard. And then, they actually, like that can be a problem, like a rage quit, kind of, we’ll come back to this tomorrow or the next kind of problem. So soon as, I’ve traveled with that, that’s a mistake I make a lot. They’re all looking at me like, “It wasn’t me, I don’t think.” What else do I talk about?
Melissa Way: So we’ve mentioned side projects a couple of times. And I think side projects are really cool, and not something I’ve gotten to experience in any other kind of work situation. So credit to Craig for that, it’s basically allowing us to kind of and paying us to use our time to pursue something we’re interested in. And that could be adjacent to Movers Mindset and what we’re working on or it could not be, but it’s finding something that we’re passionate about, and kind of almost like a personal, yeah, professional or personal development, a growth project. So finding something that we care about that we want to pursue, that we’re being supported, kind of by Craig and the Movers Mindset project to do and to pursue, which is a really, really unique and awesome opportunity, I think.
Miguel Chero: Yeah, you mentioned something that Google, something like that.
Craig: Yes. I don’t know where I stole this idea from but I steal all my ideas. I believe I’m pretty sure that Google does it. I don’t know if Google invented the idea. But it’s just I mean, it doesn’t have like a hard cap or anything. I always make the joke. Like we have one on ones. We talk about it. And I’d be like, “Miguel, do you have an idea which one your side project to be yet?” Because he hasn’t picked on recently, and he’ll be like, “Well, I could do,” and the cool part about it I think is because everybody goes off like mentally, conceptually goes off thinking about different ideas. And they come back and like, “Oh, I could do something with [inaudible 01:12:08].”
Craig: And then I’m like, well, then I run with it like, well, we could do this, and get it like I try and like flush it out and be the advocate for the idea. And then by the end of it, they’re like, “Yeah, shut up. I don’t like it anymore.” I wasn’t trying to kill it. But I was like, trying to make sure that it got a chance. Like you had the idea, but nobody else heard it yet. So now I hear it, I’m going to be positive about it. And we’re going to talk about it. And it’s like, let’s talk more next week. And I always say, we will talk about what your side project will be until I can’t get you to not do it. And then that’s like, “All right, you’re like talking about it all the time, that’s definitely a thing. And then we have ways of tracking time internally, here’s your code for tracking that. So you can you know, know where to put the time on it and have that,” and it isn’t, this is not a challenge.
Craig: But there’s no limit on like, how many hours you can spend on it. It’s just, you were going to be thinking about that anyway, so you might as well make it, and then the advantages you can like rope in your team members like, “Hey, could somebody help me with this? Or can I have a hand with that?” I think it would be fun to talk a little bit, like a little, we’ve been doing really like we’re really meta here. We’re really talking about how the team works and what’s going on. But that’s a little bit more fun stuff like what is for the table for $400? What is your favorite episode published or coming out? We all know what’s coming out?
Kristen Swantek: I think my favorite is the only three part episodes “Series” that we’ve done on which was Sebastian Foucan. And because the little backstory behind that episode, I listened to the rough cut with Craig, in a car in New York City traffic trying to go to New York to pick up another guest.
Craig: Oh, right. I’m just like, “Huh.”
Kristen Swantek: Yes, so that was spur of the moment, I don’t even know why I tagged along.
Craig: We went to pick up, it was one of those connected dot things where there was a guest who needed to come to Lehigh Valley and somebody said, we get him. I said, “Why don’t we go get him, then we can hang out and interview him.” So you and I went to New York City and went to that person’s class. And then we were just there for the day like I call him hit and run, getting it out. Nobody got hurt, going to go to class. Oh, it was hot.
Kristen Swantek: It was hot.
Craig: Oh, my God, it was hot, super hot, and then came back with the guest and his significant other.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah, so that series is my favorite one. Because of the backstory. Every time I listened to any of those episodes, I immediately also think of that experience. [crosstalk 01:14:17] But also, that was it’s one of those people where I personally, if I was walking around in my daily life would never in a million years get a chance to talk to, Sebastian, no matter what I did, no matter where I go.
Kristen Swantek: And that to me, I think was the highlight or the turning point or the first moment where I was like, “Oh, we have reach, we can get to people that, if I lived in Iowa, Illinois, like middle of nowhere, where I’ve no contact with anyone. I can listen to this podcast and feel like I have a connection to someone, or use the podcast to make a connection.” And I think that, those three episodes of that interview as a whole was, for me, the turning point. So every time I listened to it, that’s like, what keeps springing me on, I was like, “Yes, we are doing it. We have reach.”
Craig: Cool. Anybody else have a favorite, I’m trying to think of a favorite, I’m just like, I love them all.
Miguel Chero: Then there’s two right now that are sticking in my head that I listened to recently. And they’re not published, not yet. They’re coming out. I won’t say their names. But one talked about, one really brought out a really interesting topic, which was saying that kind of encouraging Parkour instructors to go outside of Parkour to teach it or just like kind of like, build, their sphere, like their teaching sphere a lot better, or just, I don’t know how to explain it. Like he was mentioning, like, power lifting. And I don’t know, but like, he didn’t say jiu jitsu, but also say like, [inaudible 01:15:39] martial arts. But like going outside of Parkour, and not bringing that back? And just kind of like, what does that call it?
Craig: Enlarging their view [crosstalk 01:15:49]. I think there’s a lot of value like, that person wasn’t talking about travel per se, but travel would factor into it. And like travel is a big thing. And I’m lucky that I get to travel, lucky in the sense that I worked really hard for a while, but I’m lucky that I can travel. And being able to listen to not that guests, but all the guests, being able to listen these people, it’s effectively like traveling. Yeah, I know who you’re referring to.
Miguel Chero: Yeah. And just because Melissa and I coach at a gym as well. I know that being in a gym, like kind of like on a daily has its limits, because you don’t really have a lot of time to go out to like other workshops that I would like to go, you kind of lose out on that unless you like really, really make time for it. So it’s a really a big opportunity to go out and kind of learn new stuff for your coaching. And the other guests. I just really vide with her. Because well, I don’t have the safety pillow right now.
Craig: I wasn’t going to make a comment about there’s no safety pillow.
Miguel Chero: Because normally, when I sit down, I usually have a pillow over my stomach. But today I actually didn’t think about it today. So I mean something right on. But she was, I vibed with her, just the way she was saying because she is also that like an introvert, which I am at heart. So getting to hear her side just, like a lot of the stuff that people just really get like out of the gate for like introverts. I feel like it’s only maybe for introverts, but people think that I’m like very a cold stone face person, but I’m actually, she said that she was very highly emotional. But I’m actually, there’s just like a lot going on inside.
Craig: Tempest in a teapot.
Miguel Chero: Yeah, I’m trying to think of like, if you saw like Captain Marvel, there’s Djimon Hounsou one of the dudes he’s, always asking him because he’s always stone faced. If you know Djimon Hounsou . He’s always like, very serious, like actor and very serious face. And like they were asking him like, “Why don’t you ever like, why don’t you ever smile, man, why don’t you ever laugh? You’re very handsome. You know that. Right?” And he’s like, “I laugh on the inside.” He’s just like, “I totally get that, though as well.” So, just a lot that he was saying just really struck me in heart. When that episode comes out, you’ll all feel it.
Melissa Way: It’s tough for me to pick a favorite episode. But I think one of the ones that stuck with me, and that I recommend people to listen to, actually probably more than I think I’ve recommended to few people is like this is a cool place to start if you just want like one to listen to you to get a sense of what the podcast is, Episode 39, with Teresa Vazquez-Dodero, which I probably, my Spanish accent isn’t great. Sorry, Teresa.
Miguel Chero: Teresa.
Melissa Way: Thank you, Miguel. But I really love her episode. And there’s a bunch of different reasons for that. It was one of the earlier ones that I was actually in the room for. So I went along for that one, it was not the first but among the first few that I did on site with Craig, and just seeing what she had to say, she had a lot of amazing, incredible stuff to say. And I think it’s even more kind of powerful. Because Teresa isn’t a famous person. She’s not someone that people know, that people are like, “Oh, I really need to know, like, I really want to hear what she has to say.”
Melissa Way: We were able to interview her because we knew her personally from going to various events with her. And so, being able to kind of give her a platform when she wouldn’t necessarily have had one and allowing people to hear what she has to say and giving her a space to share it was really cool for me. And I think that’s also something I want people to listen to that episode as well so that they can, like hear that and have that, be like, “Look, she’s not famous, but this is her personal story.” And I think that’s really important. And of course, there’s also a few coming out. If I have to choose this one that’s out that I really, really love.
Melissa Way: There’s a few coming up for that I’m pretty excited about and I believe the same one that Miguel is referencing, I’m really excited to hear that one, kind of anytime somebody isn’t sure about what they have to say, because I had kind of talk with the guests ahead of time. So anytime someone’s like, “Oh, I don’t know why anyone would want to hear this.” I’m just really excited for those episodes to come out and people to be like, “Wow, that was amazing.” Like-
Craig: For them to hear that from other people.
Kristen Swantek: Exactly.
Craig: Yes, absolutely.
Miguel Chero: And like quick shout out to Teresa because she housed, I think three out of four people at this table. [crosstalk 01:20:16] rendezvous, I met her kids and met her, so I think the Boston crew definitely know what the treasure she is. For sure.
Craig: Let’s see, favorite episode, I’m going to say Episode Seven with Fynn Bergen from [inaudible 01:20:30] school. I think it’s like saying, so [inaudible 01:20:34] is the place that houses the International Gathering. And the reason like I really can’t pick a favorite, but the reason I’m picking this one is because I can point to it as a specific turning point. So it was I think it was actually the seventh recording as well as the seventh, I know, it’s the seventh one released. And I didn’t know Fynn, like even existed until the morning before the interview. So I was in Gerlev, this is in Denmark. I was at [inaudible 01:21:00] And he addressed the morning assembly, and he gave a talk about something like his side project has to do with, like sports advocacy. He does work for international organizations. Which is pretty cool.
Craig: But he gave this speech and I was like, “What? This is awesome. I mean, this is cool.” And the project wasn’t even called Movers Mindset yet, it was called “parkour, they said”, and I got all excited about it. And I took a picture of a slide he had up and I sent it to another member of the team and not any of you three long before you guys, send a photograph of like, who is this guy? Can you look him up? And over the course of like the next 20 hours, we managed to look him up, get some background info, realize he’d be an awesome guest. I talked to Martin Kallesoe who talked to Fynn who arranged a time the next morning that Fynn and I could get together to be in Fynn’s office. And I had the podcast gear with me, like I’m sleeping on the floor in like the gymnasium but I had a little Pelican case of my gear is like everything I carry is portable.
Craig: And it was like the thing came together and 11 o’clock in the morning, I’m talking to Fynn And it’s the first episode where I really had prepared an introduction for the guests. That one’s actually really long, I actually start with like, “Please bear with me, I’m going to draw three sketches. And then there’s like a four minute monologue of me explaining what Gerlev is. So I mean, overall, it’s probably not awesome work on my part, but it was the first time where I sat down with the guest, I pressed record, I read the intro. He said to me, I think that’s the best introduction of gerlevI’ve ever heard.
Craig: And like I asked him a question and he had great answers. As a side note, Fynn is the gentleman who came to Gerlev and decided to change the curriculum to remove traditional gymnastics and to put in Parkour, so he’s the guy who is single handedly responsible for parkour in Gerlev and that whole international, like that’s Fynn, he’s now retired. He’s no longer the headmaster, but you can still listen to him in Episode Seven. And he tells a great story This is like the beginning of like, is there a store you want to share? He tells a great story about like him realizing why Parkour is such a great thing. And like it was this beautiful interview, and I pressed stop. And he was like, “Great.” And I took up the picture of Fynn [inaudible 01:22:55], that’s him in his office.
Craig: And I think he has a blues brother VHS tape on his bookshelf. It was just like, the whole thing was perfect. He was really good as a guest. And when I walked away from that, that was when I realized like, “Okay, this is the thing, I can actually carry the gear and like, do recordings, like I can get on aero planes, I can get on trains with this stuff, it works. People are willing to sit down to listen to some crazy dude, ask them stupid questions about parkour. The people are interested, people were excited to hear that like Fynn’s on the, like, everything about it kind of came together.
Craig: And that was the first one where I realized, “Whoa, this could be a thing.” And then from there, it was all like, “All right, how do we process a fight and make it go quicker?” At that point, I was still doing all the decisions about what to cut and edit and everything. And there’s a lot to do. So I think seven with Fynn would be my favorite. I’m here now in 70. And Kristen’s talking about side projects that involve a number that has a 100 in it and like, yeah. Groups, groups I have, I don’t know about this. What are we trying, what are we going to do today, pinkie?
Miguel Chero: We’re going to eat a bigger bowl.
Craig: A bigger bowl. Well play, I love movie references. No, I didn’t see that one in the theater when it first came.
Miguel Chero: No, you didn’t?
Craig: No, I would have been eight, it came out like ’79 or something.
Miguel Chero: The first one? [crosstalk 01:24:12].
Craig: The Jaws was like ’79? Anyway. All right, gang, we’ve been all over the map here. What does everybody want to talk about? So somewhere back there, we’ll be talking about this project gives people a platform. So hey, here’s a platform, what would you like to talk about?
Melissa Way: We could talk about the project and maybe a little bit broader sense of like, some challenges or something that changed youth by working on it, or something that’s really special to you about working on it?
Craig: That’s a good question, Melissa, what’s something about the project that is special to you and has changed you having worked on it?
Melissa Way: I guess, to kind of come back to some of the stuff I was hitting on before. Just the idea of giving a platform. And giving people a voice I think is a really powerful thing. But that’s kind of like, your a piece of it, I guess, because I think of it as because you started the project, Craig. But I think, for me, being able to be along for those experiences of like talking to people, there’s just certain amount of like access that it’s given me that’s been really special to kind of be a part of, and allowing me to kind of be there and learn from these people and hear what they have to say, that I think is really special. And I would definitely not have had the opportunity to do at least not in the same way to be part of that process and kind of be in the room where it happens.
Craig: You don’t have to answer the same question, like because the but what I actually asked originally was, what do you want to talk about, you could do that same one, or do something else, not looking at Kristen. It’s your chance to talk to all the people.
Miguel Chero: [crosstalk 01:25:53] looking at me.
Craig: Well Melissa’s already gone.
Miguel Chero: You can feel me, like something I want to say. I guess like really appreciating just how far it goes to engage with somebody or engage with anybody as far as like, because everybody has had always something to say whenever I’ve listened to the raw files. So like, I kind of take that with me as far as kind of taking like small, little like gems, I don’t know, like on the road or something or just with a random friend that I meet like every so often again, but like actually kind of engage with them. Just whatever maybe, just like, “Hey, how are you doing?” Like, I actually wonder how are you doing?
Miguel Chero: Because I think that’s a really important thing is to really engage, it’s really something awesome, just be passionate and to create something like for example, you created this project, the Movers Mindset and have engaged with so many people and made a lot of people to listen, and I’m sure that that many people have been affected by this, by our little samples that we put up our Instagram, or by the full episodes that they’ve listened to, I’m sure that it has impacted them in some way. They just haven’t said anything.
Miguel Chero: But like, I know, it’s definitely affecting them. And I’m also thinking about randomly just like my favorite films that I’ve released or albums that I really, really enjoy. These were people that were passionate, and they really wanted to create something, maybe with or without the intention of getting famous, or just for the fun of it, whatever purpose I was, it was created, for a reason that they were passionate about it to create it because a big weakness of mine, and I’m so that, I feel like is on the edge of getting over and getting fixed is that I’m very lazy. And I’m a very big dreamer.
Miguel Chero: So there’s a lot of stuff in my head that I want to take into action, but I’m just like, full of excuses. Honestly, a lot of the time, and so it’s just like, “I’ll just put them on the bench for an hour, not today, just I didn’t eat enough today.” So I don’t know, like so excuses were ran a lot of my life. And so, it’s make me wonder now if I’m losing out, I’m definitely for sure losing out on a big opportunity to do or create one of these ideas in my head. And I’m thinking about people that are like, “Who’s losing out on that like, who could I be affecting?” But like, that’s not the purpose, obviously. But like if I do, when I do like these projects or like create them, like people, it affects somebody, I don’t know, it always affects somebody, whatever you do, I’m thinking about Gladiator, also one of my favorite films, is what Maximus says since, like, in the beginning of the battle was like, “What we do in life echoes in eternity.”
Craig: Excellent quote, by the way. I agree. I think that’s a terrific point that you make, do you have anything you want to talk about, I have, the team doesn’t realize this. I mean, I think they saw a glimpse of it, but I have an email message with a whole bunch of questions, and I’m going to do a rapid fire [crosstalk 01:28:52].
Kristen Swantek: Okay. I will say something, the way this working for the project has impacted me is coming out of a college setting. And also, just like, general other part-time jobs I’ve had, in the general sense, like I’m a hard worker, I work ahead, you can see by the fact that working two months ahead, I like to get things done. And so, but in, their typical part-time job or your college setting is you have one or two people on a team who are gung ho and really want to work, and then everyone else is just along for the ride. So kudos to all of you here, for actually being a team that I want to work with.
Miguel Chero: Yes.
Melissa Way: Yeah.
Kristen Swantek: Yes. Craig can speak to this, that working with people who are also passionate is great. And is… You’re not helping, Craig. I hear you laughing at me.
Craig: I wasn’t laughing at you.
Kristen Swantek: So working with the team, people who are also passionate is something I’ve never gone to experience before. And I’m 21 years old. So that says something to maybe the college education system. I graduated, [crosstalk 01:29:53]. But no. So it’s a great experience for me. And it’s also something now that Craig and I have been working on for me on a personal level is working on the call, like my managing people project of not like going to someone like I would in an education setting or work setting being like, “Hey, I need this. Where is it? Give it to me. I need it now.” Instead being like, “Just so you know, like, this is why I need it. And I’m not yelling at you. I’m gently requesting that you please give it to me.” So kind of changing that, my perspective from I’m the only person in whole who is team is going to work. And if I want something or someone I have to yell and get it to now people will do work because they’d like to do it.
Craig: Terrific. So the question was, what do you want to talk about? So what I would like to talk about is I emailed somebody who sent me a bunch of questions, so I’m just going to throw these out there. And I won’t take Mulligan’s entire team of mulligans, like, no, we don’t want answer that, somebody has to answer one of these.
Melissa Way: I’m ready. Do you count as someone?
Melissa Way: Okay.
Craig: Oh, my God. Hold on. I’m somebody, does anybody know where that’s from? I’m somebody. Steve Martin from The Jerk when he sees his name published in the phone book [crosstalk 01:31:04]. He’s like I’m somebody in the phone book.
Miguel Chero: I was thinking about the, when the director like yells cut, but like the car went off the cliff already. And then the car is like midair off the cliff and the director is like, “Cut.”
Craig: All right, so the first question is, we’ve touched on this, but does anything about the job follow you? And I’m quoting out of the office and into regular day-to-day conversations or thoughts, anything follow you out of the office into regular day-to-day conversations or thoughts?
Melissa Way: I mean, certainly, like, I end up listening to every, I mean, we all actually end up listening to every single episode, so you cannot take something with you from that. Whether that’s just like an idea or something you want to try, like the episodes are kind of catered towards, like what is the audience taking away, and while we work on the project, we’re also still the audience, so plenty of tidbits. Too many to count, too many to process.
Craig: Name two.
Melissa Way: Name two. Okay. Game on. Game on, Craig. You’ve talked about this with several guests I can think of, it was in Episode 36 with Adam Mcclellan
Craig: The numbers thing again, I’m telling you, it’s definitely a thing.
Melissa Way: And an episode that is not yet out. But discussing journaling actually, several episodes that aren’t out, one is coming up in like two weeks, it will be out by the time this episode is aired. So Episode 48. And we’ll also discuss this, but the idea of journaling is something I’ve done before and I want to, I haven’t been doing pretty much since like college as much. And I’m like, I definitely want to get back into it. And we’ve discussed that a few times that something that I do think about I’m like, “Oh, I really need to like start this and I like want to go back and listen to those parts and kind of actually try to like process if I have that for myself is one thing, you said two.
Craig: And you may also have a second thing, like you can tag team this, like somebody else said something, this followed me out of, so the question was anything about the job follow you out of the office and into your regular day-to-day conversations or thoughts?
Kristen Swantek: [inaudible 01:33:04] goes to your squeak turn?
Miguel Chero: Hello, I’m Miguel Chero. [crosstalk 01:33:12].
Craig: We did that already.
Miguel Chero: [inaudible 01:33:16] really good question.
Craig: All right, we can let it slide. Here’s another one. I got like one, two, three, four, five more. This one, this one is subtle. What are the riddles that you have been struggling with the longest to make the project grow or come to a fuller life? And it’s a two parter. So what are the riddles you’re struggling, that Kristen just set up straight, she’s got a shotgun load, whatever it is you’ve been struggling with longest to make the project grow or come to full life. And the corollary is why do they feel so important?
Kristen Swantek: So Craig, I think you will agree with me on this one, is monetization. So in case anyone hasn’t noticed, is not always obvious. Many, many, many, many podcasts put ads at the beginning, at the end, in the middle of their episodes. And we do not, it’s not something we want to do, feel it two tracks in the content. We don’t want to have to go into the whole pay system and everything.
Craig: It’s a huge pain in the butt to coordinate and to get those, and yes. And it’s also based on download numbers, and we don’t have them, they have to be humongous.
Kristen Swantek: So that’s something we’ve struggled with. Because we’re all, as Craig said, it’s fairly paid people.
Craig: I always say, this is not a team of volunteers. This is a team of fairly paid individuals.
Melissa Way: Right.
Kristen Swantek: Yeah. So without people who have become voluntary subscribers, who pay us X dollars a month on a monthly basis, obviously, or people who pay to be part of our community, or even people who pay to be sponsors for an episode wouldn’t exist. And so, monetization is something we’ve been trying very, very hard to crack the code on. Because also then it’s kind of hard if you want to chime in on this the like, you don’t pay for something if you hate it.
Craig: I’m [inaudible 01:34:49], you beat the drum.
Kristen Swantek: Because you’ve done it so many times.
Craig: Well, I think the issue is the, and this is I’m not trying to criticize anybody who’s listening, but it is understood in society. This is just a given that podcasts are free. So it is not even possible, I cannot take the podcast inside a paywall, people just won’t ever hear it, because that’s just how podcasts work. That a lot of people call it the infinite dial. There are over 700000 in English, 700000 distinct shows, like Movers Mindset is one show, not episodes 700000 shows, I believe 200000 of them are still actively publishing.
Craig: So some of them wind up as like a fixed catalog. So there’s 200000 shows. So, if you don’t like my show, people just change the dial, figuratively speaking. So it has to be free, we have to give it away, I can’t like make it into teasers or say, “Well do this or that.” And the problem is people are not used to paying for things that are free like that. So there are a bunch of websites that I really follow. And I read them a regular basis. And I have voluntarily subscribed for like five bucks a month. And I mean, it’s a tiny amount of money. But there’s like four or five places that I don’t want to name drop that I subscribe to. And it’s voluntary, but I value the work that they’re doing.
Craig: So the challenge for me, and I’m not trying to like guilt people into signing up, it is really important that people sign up. But I feel that people are not used to assessing the actual value that they’re getting from something. So if you don’t like the podcast, that’s totally cool. But I’ve talked a lot of people who are like, “I listen to this episode,” and like they have these long conversations. And it’s clear, they’ve been thinking about this for days. And I’m thinking, “How much would you pay if I told you, I could kick off that train of thoughts if you gave me five bucks.” And people would throw I think like, yeah, five bucks, here you go.
Craig: But it’s just you’re so used to listening to podcasts, and you just like skip through them. And the problems we have to skipping through and listening at high speeds. But it’s just, it’s a challenge with how everything is set up, like all the social media channels are, they need you to participate, so they don’t charge you. So you’re just used to being able to access material without having to pay for it. And it’s really, it’s actually, this is not an exaggeration, it is literally not possible to build a podcast, you cannot cover the costs. Just unless you sell out big, like there’s what they call the tall head. There’s the really big podcasts that have huge numbers, and they can afford to charge $15000 for what they call a pre roll is the, “This episode was brought to you by,” that stuff.
Craig: But most of the podcasts, the vast majority of them can’t do it, and I’ve talked a lot of podcasters. I’m in communities of podcasters. And everybody’s just like, “Yeah, you can’t monetize podcasts, it’ll have to be just for fun.” So I think that’s a big challenge. I mean, that’s my, that’s like, really my problem, not the team’s problem. I mean, I always asked like, “Hey, and if people come up with ideas, and we try different things,” but it’s really a challenge of explaining to people who are listening, that they really need to think about, “Okay, this is it’s a podcast, but audio is how I’m accessing this larger project. And there is a team of people who you know, from listening to us,” that’s part of why we did this episode was you could hear us and get a feel for the people who are behind the project.
Craig: That’s kind of my rambling offshoot from you’re bringing it up. And we also have a riddle before I move on to the next thing.
Miguel Chero: I think honestly, that’s, I don’t know, in my opinion, I think that’s been the biggest riddle of all, for sure. Because we’ve all thrown suggestions into the box or just any ideas that-
Craig: That’s a great idea, and like cricket, cricket. Nobody [crosstalk 01:38:03]. What’s up with that?
Miguel Chero: It’s a really tough thing. And, I don’t know, I’m thinking in my head of like, it’s possible to ask the community.
Craig: Well, I’m convinced that, I mean, we do try to make it, we do things like, “Oh, you know what, it’s not easy to do X or Y,” and then we try to improve. So we want it to be easy with people. Like long ago, the communities were hard to get to, or we’ve been making improvements. But I think it’s really a challenge of people need to become more introspective, that’s a good thing. And this project helps people do that. But then I think they also need to take a step back and think like, what are the things in your life that you really value that you’re willing to pay for. And just because we handed it to you for free doesn’t mean that you should go down the aisle nine in the supermarket and take all the cheese samples off the tray because you want lunch. You know, you take one, but the understanding is they would like you to buy the cheese.
Craig: So that’s kind of like my, just so I think people need to consider, there are people who do support us and do chip in, but it’s not nearly close to everybody. Like I know the rough numbers that were listening. And compared to the number that are paying. Its clearly like some exceptional few. But I don’t mean to like make this a giant Debbie Downer guilty thing. Moving on. All right. Another question? Have you been surprised by anything in someone else…? Oh, good question. Sorry. Have you been surprised by anything in someone else’s toolbox? Skills or abilities that you didn’t notice before working with one another?
Miguel Chero: About someone else or?
Craig: Yeah, so surprised by anything in someone else’s toolbox? I’ll start, I got one. I tried to edit the podcast, and I’m not talking about like the physical mixing, the sound quality, I’m talking about the keep this, keep that, what we call the editorial. I tried to do the editorial for like, 12 episodes, and it was really hard. And then Miguel took it over. And I was just like, “Why did I struggle with that?” Like something about your that you were like a wizard at that?
Craig: And I don’t know how you. I mean, I know how you do it. And we’ve talked about this before, this is the second time I’ve covered this topic. And that’s like, yeah, that was a tool that I didn’t realize that it could be easy. I was just like this, “How do people make podcasts? Like, I don’t get it like,” and like, “Oh, it’s easy. You give this to somebody who has that skill set.” And I think maybe you’re better at remembering like, what, I don’t get it. Like I couldn’t get my brain wrapped around the whole episode. And kudos to you for having that skill. So it’s like-
Miguel Chero: It’s like Good Will Hunting. It’s just like [crosstalk 01:40:20], you just place.
Craig: Yeah. Do you like apples? Yes. Exactly.
Miguel Chero: Like Mozart, [inaudible 01:40:20], they just play the piano. Yeah. I don’t know.
Craig: Yes, that’s one. Melissa, do you have one?
Melissa Way: I’ve got one, we kind of touched on this before as well. But Kristen’s ability to just like, look at the overview and be like, this episode needs to go there. And just kind of, also behind the scenes that we haven’t talked about, Kristen will sometimes offer suggestions for who we should talk to. And she has a really good sense of like, what it is that people will respond to when they hear it, which was not something that I knew about her.
Kristen Swantek: Thank you.
Melissa Way: You’re welcome.
Kristen Swantek: If I may compliment you back. I knew Melissa was like a really good at arts and graphic design everything. And she does a logo and designs flyers and things for us. But she’s also really great at networking, and socializing and finding people. So when I come up with that, I think we should interview random person X, Y, Z in like, two hours. She’s like, “Okay, I’ve emailed them,” I’m like, “I couldn’t even find their Facebook page. How did you find their email?”
Melissa Way: The real answer is I’m just really great at stalking people on the internet.
Craig: You get paid, that’s part of the job, is you get paid to stock people.
Miguel Chero: I didn’t know about your, Craig was like, I didn’t know. Because I was having trouble like resizing the photos from the beginning. And I’ve worked with photos like a bunch of times is just something I just never really did was shrink them down or like [crosstalk 01:41:34] or like a specific size. Like, it was like, it was a square box, like 250 by 250. I didn’t really know how to do that. And that I was like really struggling with that. And then you were, I sent it to you. You just were like, oh, you just like, and that’s like, I was just like, “How did that go?” Did you… And that was it. That was the resizing, it was done. It was just how did Craig?
Craig: I don’t know. It should be a crop function.
Miguel Chero: I really underestimated you photography skills.
Craig: Like I ain’t got no photography skill. You’ve seen my head space in Photoshop.
Miguel Chero: The actual shooting is that different thing. I saw that for myself.
Craig: That’s a train wreck.
Miguel Chero: That was a surprise.
Craig: I love these questions. If money were no object, what inside the project would you like to spend your most time on, Kristen?
Kristen Swantek: Merchandise?
Craig: All right, so technically, money, I get it. Technically, money is an object. But in a way, what do I often say inside this? I mean, I don’t think I have an exact quote. But I’m always saying, “Don’t worry about like, how much things cost. Like, let’s figure out, we have an idea. Could we even do that? Like, what would it look like if we did it? Would it be useful, would people have it? Would it help people?”
Craig: So internally, we never start, we never literally start conversations this way. But we never start like trains of thought with like, “Well, I don’t know if this would be feasible or monitory. Or I don’t know if we can actually afford to,” that’s never where we start, we always start with, “What can we do, let’s try and put it together.” And then maybe down the road, it’s like, “Oh, that’s not going to work. It’s like three zeros off and what,” if everybody gave us $1, we’re still missing a million like there are limits.
Craig: So I really think that we don’t consider money an object when we’re starting to think about things. Now, you have to catch up with me or Kristen, at some point as the merchandise store, it takes hours to unpack, but we decided, “Hey, we have a logo, let’s actually have some merchandise with T-shirts and stuff. So Kristen went off and like began spinning up a store. And if you haven’t heard about the Supreme Court decision in July of 2018, called wayfarer versus, I think it’s South Dakota, the Supreme Court changed the rules, so that if you are selling things online, you, the seller need to be collecting sales tax, I know everybody out there sell stuff online, and you all think I’m wrong. But you will find out that you need to collect sales tax now.
Craig: And it’s 20 or 18 states so far, but it will be more. So we went down the road of like setting up a shop. And then I went down the road of like, “Oh, this is how,” and I basically said, this is way too much work internally. Because we would have to hire a third company to like, bring in an outside service that would do the sales tax filing for us. So it was this really great idea about merchandise and I just went, I don’t want to deal with that. So we kind of shut it down. But their continued to be, actually Kristen has the actual only Movers Mindset merchandise in the world.
Kristen Swantek: I do.
Craig: She has a T-shirt and a hoodie.
Kristen Swantek: I have a T-shirt and a hoodie.
Craig: A T-shirt and a hoodie?
Kristen Swantek: Yeah.
Craig: She’s like, we need to order prototype samples to make sure they don’t shrink. And she’s like ordering things that like we’re paying for. And I’m like-
Kristen Swantek: I asked permission before I used your credit card.
Craig: It’s not my credit card. But yes. So I would say that money isn’t an object. We’re always on the lookout for crazy stuff that we think would be really cool to do.
Kristen Swantek: There are some things that are definitely-
Craig: Craziest project that we shut down?
Kristen Swantek: Well, we haven’t shut it down entirely, but it’s definitely on its way out.
Craig: There’s a couple of holes around it. [inaudible 01:44:52] Which one is that?
Kristen Swantek: Movers Mindset event. A sponsored event.
Craig: Cats out of the bag, do you know where that comes from, cats out of the bag? Cat and nine tails is a thing made out of leather that used to whip sailors with when they weren’t doing work. And the cat was kept in a bag hung on the mast. And they used to say to the sailors, “Don’t let the cat out of the bag,” like they would say to each other, like, “Dude, shut up or the cats are going to come out of the bag.” That’s where that comes from. Don’t let the cat out of the bag because you’d get whipped, you just let the cat out of the bag about a thing that we’ve been talking about internally, which is having a Movers Mindset retreat.
Craig: This is a crazy idea that is not happening. But we’re actually talking about it, we talk about a lot of crazy stuff. But the first question is like, how would this even work? Because people are everywhere. And one of the reasons that this project is cool, I think is because you can, the internet, yay. And then now, we’re talking about a physical event. So my first thought was like to find a really cool place that was really close to an airport. And then all people can all fly together. So you heard it here first we’re there. We’ve been talking about it. But that, I guess that would be if money was no object [crosstalk 01:45:54] if money was no object, if I had $100000 I think I could pull it off, if I had a significant pile of cash, then we’re talking like buying people the plane tickets to come to the place.
Craig: And I don’t know what we do. I think it would just be able to just sit around and talk and I mean, people go out and play but like the idea would be to create that communication. But I really think a smaller scale version of that will be, we’ve been talking about creating regular online video meetups where people who are part of the Movers Mindset community would be able to join these meetups on video calls so that they can start to talk to each other and then you know, find the others kind of thing. So yeah, that’s our…
Melissa Way: Well, along those same lines of if money were no object. Like traveling, like when we do interviews, we travel to people.
Craig: Yeah, we only do them in person.
Melissa Way: Yeah, we will not do Skype interviews. It’s only in person. So if money were no object, like plane tickets, we can go anywhere we want. And yeah, there’s not a limit to like okay, if we can’t get-
Craig: Well, the limit is we make 52 episodes a year, like the next problem is like to put out more episodes, I’ve had it. I’ve had somebody walk up to me and say, “Wow, like you’re putting them out faster than I can listen.” So now suddenly, we can’t go any faster.” So it’s a bit of a challenge. But for now, that’s a wonderful problem to have. We have too many episodes and not enough weeks.
Craig: Let’s see, moving on from money, the object but. What’s up professional or personal capacity, that you feel like you have improved while working on Movers Mindset, oh, we kind of touched on this, but let’s go over it again, personal or professional capacity that you feel you have improved while working on Movers Mindset. I’ll tell you one, I learned to listen. People say, “You’re a really good interviewer.” I’m like, “No, actually, I’ve become a really good listener.” And one of my favorite questions now is to ask people, “What’s your superpower?” And every time I go to say this, I’m like, “Oh, if my mom ever hears me say this. I think my superpower is listening. And I talk a ton. And I’m often going shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up.”
Craig: But when I manage to shut up and let the guests or you guys talk, then it really creates that space, I seem to be really good at listening to the other person and figuring out like when they’re panicking, like when a guest on microphone, like when they’re literally panicking and they need more space. Or they need me to be a clown to like break the tension to be able to actually like be the foil for them so that they can say what they need to say. So that’s something and I think I’ve really developed this listening and by literal, conscious direct effort and practice, like notes and things, mantras and like stuff that I’ve done. And stuff that’s like a conscious effort. So 70 interviews later, completely different.
Kristen Swantek: I think I talked about my, or touched on mine, but it’s working with people instead of working at people. It’s a great way to phrase.
Craig: Stealing it. Anybody else, before we move on to another question.
Melissa Way: Working in this mode of productivity.
Miguel Chero: Yeah.
Melissa Way: Because as I mentioned, like, I haven’t had a job where it’s like about productivity and like, boom, boom, boom, these things seem to happen. So working in that mode certainly not to say that I like have all the answers at all. But now, exposure and kind of starting to find that.
Miguel Chero: I think it really pushes my motivation, like overall, like I’m much more motivated now. Like, than I was waiting in the beginning for sure. So, yeah.
Craig: And of course, the final question, three words to describe your practice.
Kristen Swantek: Podcast.
Miguel Chero: Community.
Melissa Way: Content.
Craig: Anybody want to unpack that? I’ll unpack it. So those are the three things that are on the front of the website. And it didn’t start out that way as being three different things. But we’ve realized that originally, we had the written content, which was on the website, and then it expanded into the podcast. And I really feel like there’s this overarching community that I’m trying to create, or I’m trying to facilitate. And now, that’s how the website is organized, so those three pieces. I think those are three good words.
Kristen Swantek: And those three goals of the project.
Miguel Chero: I was going to say Parkour, they said.
Craig: That would have been good. Oh, you might have to rewind a little bit to figure out where that comes from. All right, great. Anything else?
Miguel Chero: No.
Craig: All right.
Kristen Swantek: I think that’s pretty good.
Craig: Thanks a million. It was a pleasure as always talking to you guys. Have a good day everybody out there.
Miguel Chero: Thanks, Craig.
Kristen Swantek: Thanks, Craig.
Melissa Way: See you.
Speaker 1: This was Episode 50. For more information, go to my moversmindset.com/50. There’s more to the Movers Mindset project than just this podcast. Visit our website for more free content to sign up for our newsletter, or to read about how you can support this project. And I’ll leave you with a final thought from Mark Twain. “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.” Thanks for listening.