046. Jean Lam: Corrective exercise, programming, and rehab

Podcast episode


Craig: Welcome to the Movers Mindset podcast where I interview movement enthusiasts to find out who they are, what they do and why they do it. Today, Jean Lam reflects on how she became interested in fitness and eventually joined the industry, her love of movement and what sports and activities she’s involved in now. Jean discusses corrective exercise and shares her insights on programing, motivation and scope of practice. She goes into injury and rehab before explaining how she keeps up with coaching best practices.

Craig: Hello, I’m Craig Constantine.

Jean: Hi, I’m Jean Lam.

Craig: Jean Lamb is a fitness professional and has been in the field for nearly two decades. Her wide array of certifications has allowed her to work with all ages and abilities from children to senior citizens. Jean has worked with many different areas of fitness and types of movement, most recently as a ski instructor at Liberty Mountain as well as in the aerial silks and the PK move board.

Craig: Welcome Jean.

Jean: Thank you.

Craig: Jean, in the introduction I just skipped over super highlighting all of the various certifications and group physical classes you’ve taught because you’ve done so much. It’s almost impossible to summarize in a couple sentences. So could you maybe first unpack a little bit some of your background and just what really interests you about movement?

Jean: So I started probably in my twenties I was super overweight, couch potato, probably 50 pounds heavier than I am now. So I discovered jazzercise of all things, right? The Thong Leotard in the [inaudible 00:01:32]

Craig: I remember that. I didn’t do it but I remember that.

Jean: And my friend just posted a thing about it for me. So yeah, I started working out and started working out more and more and getting interested in it. I lost was probably 50 pounds and I’ve kept it off about the 30 years, but it’s because of the working out in the gym.

Jean: So then when I discovered parkour, I thought when doing pull ups I’m doing all these really cool things that are really strong but let me do something with it. So it was really fun to take that and actually be useful like the whole parkour thing. Be strong to be useful. So now I was useful. I could do something fun and climb over walls and use my pull up strength and do things that are different than just doing a pull up.

Craig: I love that. That’s exactly the opposite way that a lot of people who get into parkour they come to parkour for the spectacle or for the interest in being able to move in play and then they realize, “Oh, I can’t do all these things.” Then they have to go get physically strong. I love that you have this wicked machinery and you’re like, “What can I do with?” “Oh, parkour!”

Craig: That’s not where I think most people would go with it. Was there something about parkour that was different from other movements that you’ve tried before? I know you’re a snowboard instructor and a ski instructor and aerial silks. Is parkour your one true passion now that you found it or is there something different about it that drew you to it?

Jean: Well, you know the funny thing is as women in London and this is totally a vanity thing. I see this woman who has this unbelievable back in arms at the cart and she’s just pulling herself up, jumping on a rail and balancing coming down to be on a rail and balancing. So I was like, “Are you doing parkour? And she said, “Yeah.” I said, “What else do you do? Because your back is amazing.” She said, “Nope, this is all I do.” Yeah, four or five days a week and she’s having fun. So I showed up and it was so much fun and I’m not working out and I’m sweating and I’m moving and I’m doing fun things. And this, I was doing aerial silks at the same place, so it was basically working out, never really having to do like a burpee or whatever.

Craig: Oh, you said the b word.

Jean: Yeah.

Craig: So you’re saying 30 years ago you were, I’m going to say on the couch and now you are definitely not on the couch. This I know is an adios. Nobody can see, but she is not on the couch any longer. So how did you change? So what was it? Because I think a lot of people would love to be able to, I don’t know that everybody could pull off that kind of transformation, but there’s something transformative and fundamentally moving, I haven’t made the metaphor. But there’s something fundamental about that. I’m just wondering what caused you to jump up and move?

Jean: I have to say, this sounds stupid, but jazzercise was really fun and I did jazzercise and you got your little group and you go, “Ooh.” When you’re a little leotards and stuff like that and you’re dancing. And then I started ice skating and again, you realize that I can’t ice skate. I can’t do these activities I want to do if I’m not in shape.

Craig: Did you use to do those things like ice skating is that in college?

Jean: It was in college. Yeah, it was a college thing, so I was one of those things that unless you’re strong, you really can’t do the things that… I couldn’t do the things that I wanted to do. So it kind of built on that. I took a weightlifting class in college, in Grad School, and it’s just kind of… and I joined a gym and unlimited classes. So yeah, this was the 80s and you’re doing an ILO.

Craig: All in.

Jean: Yeah, exactly.

Craig: I would like to dig into, I think this is maybe not obvious when I say first say it, but I’d like to dig into adrenaline sports. So I would say going out on a limb that you are not a stereotypical adrenaline junkie, but it seems to me that a lot of the things that you’re doing are what we would normally think of as adrenalins but parkour is an obvious one, but also I understand that you’re a ski instructor, which means you must be really good at skiing. So I’m assuming that you don’t just do simple snowplow turns on green trails, but so the skiing, downhill skiing and parkour, and even aerial silks, how do you look at those sports in terms of in the context of fear and adrenaline, how do you think about those sports? What are your thoughts on fear?

Jean: I’m not one of those people, like you’re saying, I don’t love the adrenaline rush. I don’t… I love roller coasters, but I love the speed of the roller coaster. That whole adrenaline rush. Initially I could do without. So the same thing with aeriel silks. I wrap myself in the silk kind of up high enough to let go and do these double drops. And I’m thinking, “Well, do I want to do that?” But you have to come to just let yourself go or else you never will… I’ll never do it.

Craig: And does that… do you think that that is, obviously you think that gives you an advantage of the wrong word, but that also that gives you a power, like a power over the activity of power to push yourself. But do you think that that is something that people do to their detriment? If they chased the adrenaline,

Jean: I think you could but, I was reading the guy in free solo, Alex Honnold.

Craig: Hannold.

Jean: Yeah. And he talks about how you have to push yourself into fear and that becomes part of your comfort zone if you do that enough. I have no desire to do that level of fear.

Jean: … yeah, exactly. I’m nothing like that. So all of my… and all the things I do are relatively controlled and I have to say parkour was the first thing I did that was outside the gym. Like you’re in a gym, you can work out, run a marathon, if the worst comes to worst you stop and you don’t want to do it right. But parkour you try to jump over that vault and you catch your foot and it’s like the face plant waiting to happen. And the same with aerial silk.

Jean: So I did actually fall out of the silks and I dislocated when shoulder doing that. And so now it’s trying to get over that fear of “No, I know what I’m doing.”

Craig: Once bitten, twice shy right?

Jean: Yeah, exactly. And I’m not young. So that’s another part of it too.

Craig: Jean if anybody is familiar with you, it’s going to be from being on the PK move board. And I think that your age and your familiarity with physical movement and training, like that’s an obvious fit for what makes Nancy’s team work together so well. But I’m wondering what do you think when you see people in your same age who are still on the couch? How do you react to that and do you try to motivate them or…

Jean: It really is, because I’m 55 and I have friends who will say that they see what I do on Facebook and they’re like, “I’m going to do this.” Because this is something more than Jean. “She’s doing some flip fun things. I can do something more than I’m doing also.” So it’s been really fun that people will tell me, “Oh I did this walking on the wall because I was thinking this is what Jean would do.” The WWJD right.

Craig: We’re stealing it. What would Jean do? That’s good.

Jean: That’s so egotistical.

Craig: Is there anything else that you want to share that you want to talk about related to training or…

Jean: Yeah, so in my younger days it was like let’s go as hard as you can. How many pull ups can I do and how many push ups can I do and more is better. And as I’ve gotten older I’ve realized too, I’ve become a corrective exercise specialist that our daily living is really causing a lot of problems with our bodies and until we fix those we really can’t safely be doing those other activities, especially as we get older. So I want to say at this point 70% of my workout is probably mobility and prehab type things. And then 30% is go out. All heart as hard as you can. But it’s all in moderation.

Jean: But I do feel a lot stronger now than I did 10 years ago. I can do more pull ups, I can… and there are better form than they were.

Craig: Do you, so I’m always trying to think of ways to find things that people can take away. As an actionable and it’s tough because every episode is so different, but this makes me think do keep training logs. How do you program, because I mean if anybody knows how to program, I’m betting that Jean knows how to program for training. I’m I going to… Do you program your workouts or do you just kind of go with what you feel?

Jean: Ironically, so I program for other people and I do the programming for PK silver. I help out with it just to make sure it’s all safe and that we’re doing things that counteract our daily living. But I had got to the point where I was so overwhelmed with… I had two shoulder surgeries. I was so overwhelmed with trying to rehab myself that I ended up hiring somebody out of Boston and he works for…

Craig: Oh, interesting.

Jean: Yeah. He was circus trainers and he’s amazing. So I can just mindlessly pull up my workout and do it and not have to think, “Well this is a good exercise. Why don’t I do this one instead? Oh but even this won’t be better. And I’ll put on the TRX because…” So it’s so much easier just turning off my brain and just doing what someone tells me to do.

Craig: Jean, I know I’m jumping around, but is there… imagine you’re a time machine. And could you have gone back and told yourself something back on the sofa to speak figuratively, that you think might’ve gotten you off the sofa sooner or something that would’ve motivated you?

Jean: Yeah, I think that failure is part of the equation. If you start something… if everything you do guarantees success, you’re not going to ever expand and do more. Also find something that’s really fun to do. So back in high school you have to go to PE and you’re doing these whatever things that you absolutely hate and there’s nothing really fun about it. And if you find something fun, this is what I tell my clients to find an activity you enjoy doing and you’re not really working out. Like I said, like the aerialists, I know they’re doing pull ups, they’re doing crazy amazing things. But no, they didn’t plan to do it. This is just their fun activity. So really find something that you really enjoy.

Craig: And how do you find that? Because somebody who is listening could take this as a tool that they wanted to use on themselves. But how do you find that in someone that you’re working with? So you meet a client and you see their physical limitations and you’re starting to think about programming. How do you figure out how to motivate them?

Jean: Oh, I talked to them about what they enjoy doing, whether they like being outdoors or… and I’ve actually convinced some of them to come try out this parkour class that they haven’t really taken me up on it, but they love the idea. So when I give them a program to go out the door themselves, it’s all very movement based. So you’re not ever just doing pull ups. You might be doing a catch ball against the wall and then you’re shuffle to the side to another catch fall and you got to duck under something and all of a sudden they’re having fun and they’re enjoying it and they’re laughing and they’re like, “Oh, I’ll do this.” So it’s really about sending people off with something that they want to do. And not like this drudgery there’s a book I read is by a skier, Mermer Blakeslee who’s on the national team, she’s amazing, but it used to be called In The Yikes Zone and it’s been renamed conversation with fear. But basically that we all have this little fear box and if we don’t make the fear box bigger, it gets smaller and smaller. But you also have to be smart about going into your fear and her point was that if you went into the fear too much, then you’d end up in the bar and your scotches zone instead of in your yikes zone. And that would be a really bad thing. So, and then you end up afraid to do anything. So you really have to know. And I do this with PK silver too. You push… you can encourage them to do something that’s scary to them but don’t keep them in that fear but also never going to come back but it, but it’s always exhilarating to say, “I did that and I conquered it and I’m okay and it, it was fun.”

Craig: I’m wondering, you have a unique insight into how PK move has constructed the PK silver program and I’m just wondering if you can talk a little bit about, it’s one thing for to say everybody could do parkour and we can just make the movements easier, but I don’t think that’s actually the case. When you get to, I’m going to say, older adults who haven’t been active, I’m guessing that it’s way more complicated than just their physically weak or their tendons are deteriorated. I’m guessing there’s way more to it than that.

Jean: There’s definitely the confidence issue that they haven’t done… Again, you don’t push out of your comfort zone. It’s gotten smaller and smaller, so then they have this fear. I went to this really good class where it was a fitness class where the instructor had someone walk across the room and obviously really easy. And he said, “Now go back over there, close your eyes, I’m going to put things in your way.” And so he had the guy do that and all of a sudden he’s shuffling and he’s afraid of fall.

Jean: And I think that that’s kind of what happens with seniors. They get more and more afraid. So unless you show them that they have the… they can do things that are outside their comfort zone and how to get over curves and how to get over their steps or whatever they need to do this in their way that they won’t do it and they continue to make it smaller and smaller. But as we said to that sum to one group, your world gets smaller if you let that happen. So unless you really push yourself out, that fear is going to make you do less and it’s also going to increase your risk of falling. Because you know with parkour if you go for that vault and you don’t go for it, that’s when you get hurt. When you pull back and think, yeah…

Craig: Half measures are worse than that.

Craig: So do you… Can we go a little bit more into that? Like when you were programming for seniors in the context of PK silver, do you, are you trying to give them like I understand the idea, I think I do of providing them with an environment where they can learn how to deal with their fears now to expand that box. But are you also trying to empower them to do that fear training on their own or is it something like, “Oh can come here, we can do this in this environment.” And then they can go live their life, or do they have to continue that on their own?

Jean: I think that they bring it with them. So if you teach them that they can balance on a curb, then they’re going to go up steps and things without thinking about it. Whereas if you don’t teach them that they can what they can do, then they don’t realize they just, except that they can’t.

Craig: Because that box gets smaller, that just this is the nose know and they don’t go there at all.

Jean: Right.

Craig: We’ve touched on fear and I’ve bounced around between skiing instruction and parkour and I’m wondering are there any parallels or similarities that you’re seeing? I think there’s a moment when people start some new activity that they get excited and the joy just leaks out. And I’m just wondering if there are parallels that you see across all the different sports that you work with.

Jean: Oh, definitely. With parkour it’s more that like you’re all of a sudden you’re seeing people do things that are hard and you’re thinking, “I’ll never be able to do that.” And next thing you know you’re doing it. It’s like, “Oh, I did it.” And the same thing with skiing. They see people come down the mountain and they’re thinking, “Oh my gosh, I’m down at the bottom. There’s no way I can do that.” But I mean, and for me it’s who I always tell ski instructors, they should learn parkour because we teach the beginners basic things on the bottom of the hill.

Jean: And then you get up on the top of the hill and they look down, they’re like, “Oh my gosh, this is so far. And it’s so scary. It’s almost like my being on a rail on two feet, three feet off the ground shore, I can do anything and walk that rail.” Same rail that six feet off the ground. There’s a mat there. But at the same time it’s like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t do this. This is scary.” So I think it’s really good for instructors to try different activities and find out and you really learn what your students are going through. So my son went to urban evolution in high school. I dragged him there. He didn’t want to go, but he met two guys there. Omar, you know Omar Zaki?

Craig: I think I have met him once, but I don’t think he knows. So I don’t know he is…

Jean: And then Adam and Tyler both ended up at UVA, president of the parkour club and now they’re all in LA. Omar is on the sent person circuit and Tyler and Adam are both doing PhDs in physics out at UCLA. So it’s just a small world because the three of them are now roommates are there. There are five people in their apartment. But yeah, it’s a small, it’s a great community.

Craig: So there’s a unique opportunity there. If when you find that like your son is doing an activity that you’re also doing in which of you started first, so you took him first?

Jean: I took him, we did our intro class together.

Craig: Oh, okay. So I’m wondering is that…, But assume that’s particularly fun to be able to able to share that time with your son. Like my mom, actually my mom took parkour classes too…

Jean: Awesome.

Craig: … but it’s fun to… I mean for my mom, she loved it because she’ll… anything that she can spend time with me, that’s awesome for her. For me it was a little weird. It’s like, “It’s my mom, hope she has doesn’t fall.” Like that kind of thing. So I’m just wondering what the dynamic was between you and him in classes.

Jean: It was so much fun initially, but then he progressed so quickly because he was 16 and I was having my little classes forever. And my daughter and I actually went to the same place and we did aerial silks together. And they did a video way back then when we first started the Lam family parkour saying that, “Families that parkour together stay together.” It was a fun video, but I see the stuff he does now I’m just like, “Oh I can’t see this.”

Craig: “I can’t watch this.”

Craig: I think it’s safe to say that everybody who does parkour is training, they’re intentionally going out trying to improve themselves. It’s pretty rare to find somebody who is literally just screwing around. But I think is a far, there’s a big distance between wanting to improve myself and actually understanding how to do fitness programming and how to actually set real goals, not just, “Oh, I want to do this, I’m going to go try it.” But to actually program and to set goals and to train seasonally and to have a big picture view. And I’m wondering what you might be thinking about all the people that you see who might be able to do better than you because of their age, but then you’re looking at while if you change this, you could go this additional distance further. Kind of.

Jean: Definitely. Because we have daily living dysfunctions. And that’s what we try to program into the PK silver program, is that if they can’t put their arms directly over your head, you don’t want them to do things that are overhead until you work on mobility. But I do see people in parkour, they’re trying to do handstands and they can’t get their arms over their head safely and then they shouldn’t be. But you can see the big arch, a lot of problems. So, yeah, I definitely see movement issues that your body can compensate for when you’re younger. But as you get older, that little, that same thing is going to cause rotator cuff tears. It’s going to cause just different dysfunctions down the line.

Craig: And so my next thought is okay, so were you, when she said, how many people out there raised their hands when she said, “Hold your, I raise both of mine.” And went, “Yeah. And I’ve been working on handstands and I can’t hold my arms straight up.” So my next thought was, “Oh okay Jean, how do I fix this problem that I have?” So if I am a lot of… because the states are so huge, if I’m in a space where I don’t have access to… there are a lot of great programs, but what if I’m by myself on, is there some hints or some breadcrumbs that you can give people to like, “Here’s how you can find information online or types of people that you should seek out.”

Jean: Physical therapists are obviously ideal, but if you can’t afford to go see one because… and plus you need a referral depending on the state you live in.

Jean: They’re physical therapists who are like Barbell Physio because they do, he’s a physical therapist. He teaches crossfit, really good programming shift gymnastics is another one that’s also really good. Again, physical therapists who are working with specific communities and making sure that they can do the activities safely.

Craig: Your skillset and the way that you think about movement and the analysis that you bring to it is as obvious. And the more I talked to you, the more I’m like, “Oh now I understand and I see exactly why Nancy thinks so highly of you and my Rosy talks about you’re such a key member of the team and I’m thinking there’s this idea that I’ve heard Nancy talk about, which I think is like scope of moving, her scope of work…

Jean: Scope of practice?

Craig: Scope of practice. I almost had it. You’re right. So that concept, it seems to me to be really, I want to say unique.

Craig: I mean, I’m not implying that you guys made it up, but it’s a very unique part of the mission and vision. And I’m wondering if you just unpack what you mean by scope of practice and why that’s so important.

Jean: Some personal trainers and some fitness people will go into the physical therapy realm of things where if someone’s in pain they’ll try to treat it and I would, I will… What we do is preventative will notice, “Oh wait, you’re head’s leaning forward. Why don’t we have do exercises that’ll make you stand up a little bit taller as stretches.” But I will never… but if they said, “Oh my, my back hurts, my neck hurts.” We won’t say, “Oh try this because we don’t know what’s causing it. We don’t know what the underlying debate was going on. So we might help with just facilitating better movement but we won’t work through pain.

Craig: So that’s the… when you say scope of practice, you’re saying this is what we do, we don’t certain barriers. And one of them is pain indicators or what’d you call it, self stopping. When they decide that they’ve had enough.

Jean: Exactly.

Craig: That’s your way of defining that scope. Do you think that, I mean I think it’s obvious. It seems to me obvious that that’s really wise when it comes to seniors and people who you don’t know like do they have osteoporosis? They might not even know that they have osteoporosis, but I’m also thinking that strikes me as a very good thing to just apply to myself at my four years old and 20 year old. That seems like a valuable skill and I’m wondering where did you get that idea? Is that something that, because I want to hear a lot of parkour people talking about that and I’m wondering if you brought that from some other place that you learned it or…

Jean: Its mostly from the fitness world of you don’t cross that you have your scope of practice, that’s what you do. But I also have a certification in corrective exercise, so that’s the… everyone has daily dysfunctional daily, problem daily dysfunctions and you want to try to work on those before you actually have somebody do heavy lifting. So it’s one of my problems of having heavy lifting in a classroom because again, the overhead, if you’re doing like a snatch overhead and your arms can’t go overhead, then you’re going to arch your back to make that happen. So your body can make any movement happen. It’s just can it make the movement happen in an efficient manner?

Craig: You clearly have a lot of experience with working with clients on preventative exercises. But I’m also wondering, you’ve mentioned that you’ve had two rotator cuff injuries and I’m guessing that the journey from sofa to the current things that you do that that hasn’t been injury free. So I’m wondering if you’d want to share some of the injuries that you’ve done and how you worked through that. And then have you found that you’ve changed the way you teach having experienced injuries and had to work through them.

Jean: Well, they’re acute injuries and then there are chronic injuries like the acute injuries when you fall and you hurt yourself. And then the chronic ones are just overused so you’re doing something inefficiently and you’re causing damage. So, there’s only so much you can do about acute injuries. We’re strong. That’s kind of what happened to me. I fell in ice skating. I broke three bones. I had pins and screws put in. This was so long ago that they didn’t even have PT back then. It was just like, “See you, have a good life?” Yeah, exactly.

Jean: But then three years ago I fell from the aerial silks and I dislocated a shoulder. I thought I was fine. I came back to aerials. I was doing parkour, I was doing rock climbing and a year later I was doing like an effortless move in silks and my shoulder dislocated again. I went to the doctor and he’s like, it’s the most screwed up shoulder he’s ever seen. I tore two rotator cuff muscles and he said the fact that… he was like, “Look what I was doing. I was doing like aerial silks and I was doing these spiny things and around the arm.” And he’s like, “Yeah.”

Craig: That’s nice.

Jean: Yeah. And so when I came out of surgery, he’s like, if most rotated cuff surgery repairs a two or three out of 10 this was a 9.8 and so it was really bad.

Jean: So he was so… I mean I’ve recovered a year later. It took me like a lot of PT and stuff and he said he’d cross his fingers before he went into my room every time. Because he was sure that was going to break. It wasn’t going to hold. And so two months after that I went flying off the moguls in skiing, and dislocated the other shoulder. And so I had, yeah. So this has been my second time in three years of just constant recovery. And it’s just not something you want to go through. But again, there are people who have rotator cuff surgeries and it’s because they’ve overuse or because of chronic something. And so that’s something you, if you have any pains it’s worth seeing a PT and getting a handle on it beforehand.

Craig: Did you… so before your first a rotator cuff injury from aerials, did you find that before that and then afterwards it affected how you coach? So like people have told me, there are things that happen in your life and like a change, not just themselves, but also change how they interact with other things. I’m just wondering how it changed your coaching if it did.

Jean: No, not really because it was a acute injury, something that just happened. I’ve had a lot of friends say, “You’re just really not young. Maybe you shouldn’t be doing the activities you do.” And I’m like, “No, you know what, I’m okay.”

Craig: Yeah, what’s that with the cycle time on connective tissue is like 500 days. So my, that you don’t have things in between. Their tendons and ligaments are only 500 days old. So I don’t want to hear this, I don’t want to hear the complaint about it. Everything’s old.

Jean: And then a friend of mine said about her injuries. It’s a price of being me.

Craig: Yes, I totally agree with that. I have a couple scars and they have really good stories that go with them. I love all dogs and I have a scar on my back from… I got bit by a dog and I deserved it. So I always think it’s interesting to hear how people assimilate their injuries. I don’t just mean like it’s part of your body, but like how it becomes part of your persona there. Sometimes you hurt yourself and then it becomes a change in your gait or a change in what you think you can do.

Jean: Oh, completely. Yeah. And if you don’t stay on top of it too, injuries come back to haunt you. And that’s what happened with my ankle. I’ve just had so many things happen as a result of that, I think.

Craig: Jean, one of the challenges I find with a podcast is that people can not see us. I’m not saying I want to do video blogging, but they can’t actually get an assessment of how physically fit you are and what you do. And I’m wondering, so there’s a proverbial elephant in the room, which is women of a certain age, of a certain physical fitness level might not be given the credit of like, “oh, you’re a capable instructor.” And separate from that, there’s also an issue within parkour when we talk about instructors and we talk about the ability to do, pick anything, and the ability to teach that thing. Those are two completely different skill sets. So I think everybody who’s listening is familiar with that idea of like how do you demonstrate the physical knowledge versus the physical ability? And I’m wondering what your thoughts are of like, do you run into clients who sort of don’t want to take your advice?

Craig: Not because you’re out of shape, but just because you’re a slight older woman who, oh, and you have a rotator cuff injury. Well, what could you possibly know? And I’m just wondering how do you, does that cause you frustration or how do you deal with that?

Jean: I think once you show them that you can do, unfortunately you have to show that you can do it. Whereas young guys don’t have to show that they can do pull ups or push pushups. But I think that if there’s ever any doubt, and I do it then that like I do, I hop at the, I’ll do a pull up or whatever…

Craig: Just through it down…

Jean: Yeah push it yeah, exactly, and two rotator cuffs later.

Craig: But I kind of wonder like, that almost seems to imply that the people who are young and physically able and capable actually that’s a detriment. Like they almost should be forced to demonstrate that they know how to teach. So you clearly know how to teach, you clearly know the material, but if you’re forced to physically perform before you get the street credit, well, we almost need to say to the people who are young and physically fit, we need to force them to perform at the coaching and teaching level and we don’t do that. And that seems to me as like a really unfair situation.

Jean: It’s interesting because actually my company is very much of a… we’re not hiring young meatheads. You have to prove that you have knowledge and that you’re not going to give this 80 year old woman who’s never worked out how to deadlift her weight giving her…[crosstalk 00:27:02]

Jean: Yeah, exactly. Or snatches or anything like that. You have to… so it’s actually in my company, kind of the reverse, where you have to prove that you’ve got the qualifications to be working with people who are older and people don’t realize about working with people who are older or people who aren’t are deconditioned. It’s not just about taking the same exercise and making it easy.

Jean: There’s so much more involved in it. It’s harder to do that. And some people think it’s easier to just have them do whatever.

Craig: Less weight. Only ever scratch your hand.

Jean: Exactly. Yeah. And there’s so much more involved and you have to be much more knowledgeable in order to teach people who are deconditioned.

Craig: So if somebody who was listening and said, “Oh, that’s a good point, I want to like learn more about that skill. Is there… where do people go? Is there organizations or books that you’d recommend or just to start digging into that whole new universe?

Jean: There’s so many classes you’d have to take and it’s constant learning. I feel like if you’re not on top of everything up to date that you’re behind. So that’s one thing with PK silver is that we always use up to date research and it’s science based research in order to to develop our program.

Jean: And again, you have to… if I find blogs and physical therapists who I respect, I have an NASM corrected exercise specialist.

Craig: NASM?

Jean: Yeah, National Academy of Sports Medicine. And they do a corrective exercise specialist. They were one of the first ones that came out with it. A lot of other organizations have it now, but that kind of gives you the basic level, but it’s still until you really get to the world of it. And I have… we all have a golden hearts seniors certification, senior specialists, but I also am constantly taking classes, doing workshops.

Craig: And of course, the final question, three words to describe your practice.

Jean: Always have fun.

Craig: Thank you very much, Jean. It’s been a pleasure.

Jean: Thanks for having me.

Craig: This was episode 46. For more information, go to moversmindset.com/46 and there’s more to the movers mindset project than just this podcast. Visit our website for more free content to sign up for our newsletter or to join the movers mindset community. Thanks for listening.